Campbell Live | TXT POLL: Does NZ need a new flag?

Flag of New Zealand [en.wikipedia.org] 1The flag of New Zealand is a defaced Blue Ensign with the Union Flag in the canton, and four red stars with white borders to the right. The stars represent the constellation of Crux, the Southern Cross. More at Wikipedia.

Tweets 27.2.15 @CampbellLiveNZ [screenshot]:

Campbell Live tweets 27.2.15

### ODT Online Fri, 27 Feb 2015
Chin hoping for ‘huge interest’ in flag debate
By Chris Morris
Mr Chin (73), Dunedin mayor from 2004-10, was yesterday named with 11 others – including prominent New Zealand businessmen, academics, sportsmen and military figures – to sit on the Flag Consideration Panel. Mr Chin (73), Dunedin mayor from 2004-10, was yesterday named with 11 others – including prominent New Zealand businessmen, academics, sportsmen and military figures – to sit on the Flag Consideration Panel. Mr Chin told the Otago Daily Times he was looking forward to the role and hoped public interest in the debate would be “huge”.
Read more

● Binding referendum for NZ flag design.
● No binding referendum for sending NZ troops to Iraq.

Surprise. John Key PM has a super-inflated ego.

█ See Russell Garbutt’s comment & following discussion at Peter Chin positive.

The Last Of The Rockstars Published on Jan 19, 2014
U2 – Get On Your Boots (Grammys 2009) – HD

Here’s the video screen sans audio:

U2 Spain Uploaded on Mar 3, 2009
U2 – GET ON YOUR BOOTS (Screen 360 Tour)
(No Line on the Horizon)
Alternate video

Posted by Elizabeth Kerr

118 Comments

Filed under Business, Democracy, Design, Economics, Geography, Heritage, Hot air, Media, Name, New Zealand, People, Politics, Project management

118 responses to “Campbell Live | TXT POLL: Does NZ need a new flag?

  1. Elizabeth

    It is a fact of life that the decision has significance way beyond New Zealand’s bilateral relationship with the US.

    ### ODT Online Sat, 28 Feb 2015
    Iraq decision: import beyond NZ-US ties
    By John Armstrong
    OPINION It took some carefully chosen words by a former high-ranking diplomat to cut through the self-serving verbiage spouted by politicians and bring some clarity to the acrimonious debate on the merits or otherwise of New Zealand’s latest excursion to the Middle East.
    While every political party laid claim to the moral high ground in the argument surrounding the deployment of a team of army training personnel to Iraq, Terence O’Brien, a Ministry of Foreign Affairs veteran of more than 40 years’ standing, cut straight to the crux of the matter.
    Read more

    ● John Armstrong is The New Zealand Herald political correspondent.

    ****

    inthehouseNZ Published on Feb 23, 2015
    24.02.15 – Ministerial Statement – Deployment of troops to Iraq – Part 2
    Provided by http://www.inthehouse.co.nz
    Produced by Tandem Studios

    dannewstv Published on Feb 24, 2015
    John Key: “Get some guts!” on sending troops to Iraq

    http://www.facebook.com/dannewsonline | http://www.twitter.com/dannews | http://www.dannews.co.nz
    Note: Copyright is held by the indicated broadcaster.
    Watermarks are to stop websites from using this content without crediting the work I did to compile and upload.

    New Zealand Parliament
    Hansard and Journals
    Hansard (debates)

    [Sitting date: 24 February 2015. Volume:703;Page:1. Text is subject to correction.]

    Ministerial Statements
    Iraq—Deployment of Troops

    Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): I wish to make a ministerial statement under Standing Order 356 in relation to the deployment of troops to Iraq. Today I am announcing to the House the Government’s decision about our contribution to the fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL).
    Last November I gave a national security speech that outlined the threat posed to New Zealand by ISIL. This brutal group and its distressing methods deserve the strongest condemnation. ISIL’s ability to motivate Islamic radicals makes it a threat not only to stability in the Middle East but regionally and locally too. It is well funded and highly skilled at using the internet to recruit. Disturbingly, ISIL’s brutality has, if anything, worsened since I gave that speech late last year. In recent weeks we have witnessed a mass beheading and the horrific plight of a Jordanian pilot being burned alive in a cage, and we have seen stories of Western hostages who have been kidnapped and killed in barbaric ways. ISIL’s outrageous actions have united an international coalition of 62 countries against this group. New Zealand is already considered part of the coalition because we have made humanitarian contributions, with $14.5 million in aid provided to the region so far. The Government has carefully considered its options to expand our contribution to the international coalition. As I outlined in November, our approach is one that addresses humanitarian, diplomatic, intelligence, and capacity-building issues.
    New Zealand is a country that stands up for its values. We stand up for what is right. We have an obligation to support stability and the rule of law internationally. We do not shy away from taking our share of the burden when the international rules-based system is threatened, as it is today. We have carved out our own independent foreign policy over decades, and we take pride in it. We do what is in New Zealand’s best interests. It is in that context that I am announcing that the Government has decided to take further steps to help the fight against ISIL.
    Full Statement

    [statements follow in the house, with Mr Key again – at same link]

    Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): I take this opportunity to sum up the statements that have been made in the House. On Monday the Government made a decision to send New Zealand forces to train Iraqi forces. It made the decision to send 106 people to Taji for up to 2 years. We made the decision to stand up to the evil and barbaric behaviour we have seen from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

    I want to focus not on political parties that have either well-established positions or fundamentally not much to add to the debate but on Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition. The interesting thing is this. Labour in New Zealand, when it comes to sending New Zealand forces for training, says no—it says no. But the interesting thing is that the Labour Opposition in the UK says yes. The Labor Opposition in Australia says yes, and the equivalent of the Labour Opposition in Canada says yes. So every Labour Opposition in like-minded countries says yes, but, apparently, the Labour Opposition in New Zealand says no. But hold on a minute, Labour when it was the Government said yes to sending 60-odd engineers to Iraq. No debate, no vote—“You’re going, boys.” And Labour when it was in Government said yes to sending the combat forces of the SAS, and it did not tell the country; it just said yes.

    I listened to Andrew Little’s speech, and here is the bottom line: he did not believe it, and I do not believe him, because he knows that these people are barbaric and evil. He knows that there are 35 to 40 New Zealanders at risk of being a domestic threat. He knows, like I know, that the number of people on the list is growing to 60 or 70. He knows, like I know, that New Zealanders are in the region. He knows, like I know, that New Zealanders travel prolifically. He says that he cares about New Zealanders and he says that he wants to stand up for them. Well, in Government he would be making this decision. You see, the reason he is not doing so is this. It is not that it is not the right thing, because Phil Goff, when he was the Minister of Defence, used to do all this stuff with bells on. The reason is that he wants politics to win over what is right for the people.

    I will not—will not—stand by while Jordanian pilots are burnt to death, when kids execute soldiers, and when people are out there being beheaded. I am sorry, but this is the time to stand up and be counted. Get some guts and join the right side.

    Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]

    Mr SPEAKER : Order! [Interruption] Order! I have not called the member yet. [Interruption] Order! [Interruption] Order! I have a point of order from the Rt Hon Winston Peters and I expect to hear it in silence.

    Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS : To enable the Defence Force to be sent with the best wishes of the Prime Minister and this Parliament, perhaps the Prime Minister could be given an extension of time to debate that—rather than the tirade we have just heard.

    Mr SPEAKER : Order! That is not a point of order.

    New Zealand Parliament – Order Paper and questions
    Questions for oral answer

    1. Prime Minister—Statement on Deployment of Defence Force to Iraq
    [Sitting date: 25 February 2015. Volume:703;Page:1. Text is subject to correction.]
    1. METIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader—Green) to the Prime Minister : Does he stand by his statement “Get some guts and join the right side”?
    Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): Absolutely I do.
    Read more

    3. Prime Minister—Statement on Deployment of Defence Force to Iraq
    [Sitting date: 25 February 2015. Volume:703;Page:2. Text is subject to correction.]
    3. ANDREW LITTLE (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister : Does he stand by his statement that “We recognise ISIL is not a short-term threat and there is a lot of work to be done in the long-term”; if so, does he accept this means New Zealand’s deployment may last longer than 2 years and involve more than training?
    Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): Yes; and no.
    Read more

  2. Hype O'Thermia

    “I will not—will not—stand by while Jordanian pilots are burnt to death, when kids execute soldiers, and when people are out there being beheaded. ”
    Yup, spoken like a true hero. “I’ll send other people over to where they have a reasonable chance of coming home in a body bag because the people he’s sending them away to resist don’t play by the rules. Meanwhile my own lad will be enjoying the exclusive club scene in Auckland with the other children of the rich, and as a family with firm family values we’ll bask in pride that thanks to my efforts Jordanian pilots will never face danger again.”
    Let’s hope some disaffected local youngster doesn’t decide to join the IS cause, and even if he can’t afford the air fare to go where the best of the action is he can strike a blow for The Cause by attacking a NZ place where many people are gathered. An exclusive nightclub for “high-society” young people in the right expensive clothes, for example.

  3. Peter

    Isis must be quivering at their knees with John Boy’s speech. 143 soldiers? Protected by the Yanks? The same ones who have exarcerbated the troubles in the first place. God help our men. Or Allah.

  4. Mike

    Today’s ODT had a wonderfully relevant cartoon:

    Garrick Tremain – 28 Feb 2015

    garrick-tremain-greeting-28-feb-2015Source: National Library of New Zealand

    Tremain shows us our Mickey Mouse PM (note the 3-fingered Mickey glove) shaking Abbott’s hand over Iraq.

  5. Elizabeth

    WhiteFlag[imgarcade.com via brch.org] 1aWhiteFlag [via Samwell at reddit.com 8 days ago 28.2.15] 1b

    DidoVEVO Uploaded on Oct 2, 2009
    Dido – White Flag (Official Video)
    Music: “White Flag (Radio Edit)” by Dido (Google Play • iTunes)

    *Images (tweaked by whatifdunedin): white flag at imgarcade.com via brch.org | 3 flags via Samwell at reddit.com 8 days ago – see Wikipedia: The White flag of the monarchy transformed into the Tricolore as a result of the July Revolution, painting by Léon Cogniet (1830).

  6. Elizabeth

    A joint “building partner capacity” mission in Iraq.

    ### stuff.co.nz Last updated 11:00, February 28 2015
    Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott to discuss Iraq deployment with John Key
    By Tracy Watkins
    The business end of Australian prime minister Tony Abbott’s trip to New Zealand got under way this morning after he headed into talks with his New Zealand counterpart John Key. The focus will be Iraq after Abbott confirmed yesterday a joint Anzac mission was being planned. But the meetings have been overshadowed by ongoing speculation about Abbott’s future as the knives come out for his leadership.
    Read more

  7. Elizabeth

    “Material representations are nothing without the life behind them.” –Stuff

  8. Elizabeth

    From HBO’s Last Week Tonight with John Oliver.

    █ Watch John Oliver – New Zealand’s New Flag at Youtube [no embed available] – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz29_bFxBZA
    Published by con sumer on Nov 3, 2014. Read comments.

    New Zealand flag [John Driver - HBO Last Week Tonight Nov 3, 2014]Design for NZ flag – Last Week Tonight [screenshot]

    ****

    For most of us, black is just black. But in some cultures what matters is its degree of shine.

    ### NZ Herald Online 8:00 AM Saturday Feb 28, 2015
    Is our obsession with the colour black fading?
    By Lindsey Dawson
    We love our All Blacks, but the new flag debate shows our obsession with the darkest hue may be fading. This is going to be a black kind of year, driven by two events. First, the Rugby World Cup, starting on September 18. Second, the first of two referendums that will decide the look of the New Zealand flag – dates yet to be revealed. Both will be the cause of high patriotism, feverish debate and surging blood pressure. On the footy front the boys already have new jerseys, described by All Black captain Richie McCaw at last November’s uniform launch as “the blackest we’ve ever had”.
    But should our flag be black too? Prime Minister John Key used to be keen on a midnight flag adorned with a silver fern but by last October he’d pulled back on that, favouring instead a red and blue fern-and-stars design by Kyle Lockwood. By then, of course, images of black-clad Isis fighters waving their own black and white flag were all over the news – not that Key was admitting the terrorist banner is responsible for his change of heart, not even after comedian John Oliver cheekily inserted him into a picture that made him look like he was grinning in front of an Isis flag – an image chuckled over by Oliver’s fans around the planet.
    The Change the NZ Flag Facebook page (liked by close to 26,000) is full of new concepts. Every design prompts raging feedback from “love it” to “loathe it”. But it does reveal a tide-turn against darkness.
    Read more

    █ Google images for NZ Flag

  9. Elizabeth

    Tweet from Hamish Keith (@hamish_keith) 1.3.15 at 2.50 pm (1)Tweet from Hamish Keith (@hamish_keith) 1.3.15 at 2:50 pm

  10. Elizabeth

    Winston Peters said the process of changing a national emblem needed to follow an “impeccable” process (via NZ Herald).

    John Driver - HBO Last Week Tonight 3.11.14 IS flagsJohn Driver - HBO Last Week Tonight 3.11.14 IS flagJohn Driver - HBO Last Week Tonight 3.11.14 Key with IS flagJohn Driver, HBO Last Week Tonight 3.11.14 [screenshots]

  11. Elizabeth

    ### ODT Online Wed, 4 Mar 2015
    Scrutinising Iraq intervention
    By Kevin Clements
    OPINION Violent solutions to violent problems simply generate more violence. […] there is little chance that a modest military training mission to a predominantly Shi’a army will have any impact whatsoever on the political goals of IS or its Saudi and Qatarese supporters. On the contrary, this support will be construed by Sunnis as the coalition of the willing tilting in favour of Iranian, Iraqi and Syrian Shi’a interests. New Zealand will find itself on one side of the Sunni-Shi’a divide and hostage to whatever our United States and Shi’a allies decide is in their interests.
    Read more

    ● Professor Kevin P. Clements is the director of the National Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies, University of Otago.

  12. Elizabeth

    AdeleVEVO Published on Oct 18, 2012
    Adele – Skyfall (Lyric Video)
    Written by ADELE and Paul Epworth.
    Skyfall is the official theme song to the James Bond film of the same name.
    Video by Nick Chappell. http://adele.tv
    Music: “Skyfall (Full Length)” by Adele (Google Play • iTunes)

    It’s not like the movies, John Key.

    Sony Pictures Entertainment Published on Jul 31, 2012
    SKYFALL – Official Trailer
    Daniel Craig is back as Ian Fleming’s James Bond 007 in Skyfall, the 23rd adventure in the longest-running film franchise of all time. In Skyfall, Bond’s loyalty to M is tested as her past comes back to haunt her. As MI6 comes under attack, 007 must track down and destroy the threat, no matter how personal the cost.
    Genre: Action / Adventure
    Cast: Daniel Craig, Javier Bardem, Ralph Fiennes, Naomie Harris, Judi Dench
    Director: Sam Mendes
    Screenplay By: Neal Purvis, Robert Wade, John Logan

    ADELE – Skyfall (Official video HD) published on Nov 2, 2012 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StJLvbPIvTw

  13. Elizabeth

    ### NZ Herald Online 5:00 AM Monday Mar 9, 2015
    Flag shortlisters earn $640 a day
    By Nicholas Jones
    Govt budget allows almost $500,000 for high-profile panel out of $25m cost to decide national symbol. A panel of high-profile New Zealanders charged with selecting a shortlist of new flag designs will each pocket $640 a day. […] Panel members will receive $640 per day worked. Chair John Burrows, the former deputy chancellor of the University of Canterbury, will receive $850 per day worked. […] There would be up to 14 panel meetings across two years, as well as community meetings. Assuming the members work an average of two days per week from May until the first referendum towards the end of the year, they would be paid almost $36,000. A budgeted allowance for the panel and its work was up to $465,040 over the 2014/15 and 2015/16 financial years.
    Read more

    ● Overall, the flag referendum process is expected to cost $25.7 million, of which $17.3 million is for the two referendums and the remainder for public consultation.

    ● More money will need to be found for postage and processing costs if voter turnout exceeds 70 per cent.

    ● The cross-party panel has MPs from all parties bar NZ First which declined because it objected to the process.

    ● Panel members: John Burrows (chair), Kate de Goldi (deputy chair), Julie Christie, Rod Drury, Nicky Bell, Lieutenant-General Rhys Jones, Beatrice Faumina, Sir Brian Lochore, Stephen Jones, Peter Chin, Malcolm Mulholland and Hana O’Regan.

  14. Elizabeth

    Dissonance, flags and more.

  15. Elizabeth

    ODT Mon, 9 Mar 2015 (page 3)

    IMG_20150309_171843

  16. Elizabeth

    Trevor Mallard says voters should be asked whether they want to change the flag in the first referendum.

    ### ODT Online Thu, 12 Mar 2015
    Labour to oppose flag bill
    Source: NZ Herald
    Labour will oppose a bill setting up the two referendums deciding the fate of the flag because of a sticking point over the order of the questions. The Flag Referendums Bill is expected to get its first reading in Parliament soon and has enough support to pass its first stage without Labour, although the Maori Party and the Greens have only committed to support it through to select committee so far.
    Read more

    End of 2015:
    Referendum One: If the New Zealand flag changes, which flag would you prefer? [Voters rank four options in order of preference]

    April 2016:
    Referendum Two: What is your choice for the New Zealand flag? [voters choose between current flag and chosen new design].

  17. Elizabeth

    ### ODT Online Thu, 12 Mar 2015
    Flag change referendums come one step closer
    Source: NZ Herald
    Legislation to set up the two referendums on the flag has passed its first hearing in Parliament but Labour and NZ First both withheld support, saying it could save millions of dollars if New Zealanders were asked if the flag should change in the first referendum.
    The Flag Referendums Bill passed its first stage by 76 votes to 43 today and will be considered by the Justice and Electoral Select Committee. NZXME
    Read more

  18. Elizabeth

    ### ODT Online Tue, 17 Mar 2015
    Designing politician waives the flag
    By Jim Sullivan – Nothing Too Serious
    OPINION Welcome to this first meeting of the Flag Options Panel (FOP).
    As Prime Minister, I’m especially grateful to you, as it takes a great deal of non-vote-winning stuff off my plate. I’ll run through how the system will work and then I can leave you to get on with the job, just as I do with those of my cabinet ministers I’ve not yet had to remove from office.
    Read more

  19. Elizabeth

    ### ODT Online Wed, 15 Apr 2015
    Editorial: Flying the flag
    OPINION The RSA has courted controversy this week by entering the campaign fighting against proposed changes to the country’s flag. Most criticism is coming with allegations the RSA is interfering with democracy in its opposition to the proposed change, particularly with its comments about the timing of submissions closing on Thursday, April 23, two days before Anzac Day. The RSA says it feels the closing date is inappropriate, when two days later, New Zealanders will be all standing under the New Zealand flag, as dawn breaks.
    Read more

  20. Elizabeth

    We have a flag and don’t need a referendum, writes New Zealand First leader Winston Peters.

    ### ODT Online Tue, 28 Apr 2015
    Change of flag an uncalled-for waste of money
    By Winston Peters
    OPINION Two days before the country gathered to solemnly mark the centennial of the Gallipoli landings, submissions on the Flag Referendum Bill closed. New Zealand First has refused to join the multi-party committee behind this Bill and we share the Returned and Services’ Association’s view on this very important issue. We are unequivocally against any flag change and believe the two referendums represent a waste of taxpayers’ money when so many worthy causes remain unsupported.
    Read more

  21. Hype O'Thermia

    Ponytail gules rampant innit?

  22. Elizabeth

    ### ODT Online Tue, 5 May 2015
    New Zealanders asked to join flag debate
    Source: NZME
    New Zealand is one step closer to choosing or ditching a new flag and Kiwis have been invited this morning to design their own banner. The formal flag change process starts today and the Government’s Flag Consideration Project has announced a series of roadshows and hui this morning.
    […] In a recent poll, only one in four Kiwis said they wanted to change the flag. Support for a flag change plummeted in the latest Herald-Digipoll from 40 per cent a year ago to 25 per cent.
    Read more

    █ For more information on the national flag debate, visit http://www.standfor.co.nz

    █ To upload your own flag design, visit http://www.flag.govt.nz

  23. Elizabeth

    Opinion polls have indicated the majority don’t want to change our flag.

    ### ODT Online Thu, 28 May 2015
    Editorial: Time to be heard
    The next stage in the controversial process to decide the future of the New Zealand flag has begun, with the Government-appointed Flag Consideration Panel going on the road to encourage New Zealanders to “share what they stand for” ahead of two referendums on the topic. […] Critics believe the review is simply the prime minister’s vanity project.
    Read more

    • Hype O'Thermia

      “Critics believe the review is simply the prime minister’s vanity project.”
      Is there any other reason?
      It’s not like NZers don’t have a heap of needs on which $27million and counting could be better spent. Yet he’s adamant on the topic – flag change attempt it must be, bugger the tired, the poor, the huddled overcrowded masses yearning for a fair share of the national sizzled sausages. Silly buggers, can’t they see it’s a big-N National Fortnum’s hamper?

  24. Elizabeth

    ### ODT Online Mon, 6 Jul 2015
    Should we have a new flag? The trick is to keep it simple
    By Peter Entwisle – Art Beat
    OPINION […] The Government has asked people to submit designs and an online gallery shows numerous offerings. Many are poor examples of graphic design and the symbolism of many ranges from thumpingly heavy handed to obscure to the point of invisibility. The art and practice of designing flags is called vexillography. There is an organisation called the North American Vexillogical Association (Nava) which has put forward advice about how to design a great flag. It offers five principal rules which I think are a good summary:
    1. Keep it simple. The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory.
    2. Use meaningful symbolism. The flag’s images, colours or patterns should relate to what it symbolises.
    3. Use 2-3 basic colours. Limit the number of colours on the flag to three, which contrast well and come from the standard colour set.
    4. No lettering or seals. Never use writing of any kind or an organisation’s seal.
    5. Be distinctive or be related. Avoid duplicating other flags, but use similarities to show connections.
    Read more

    • Elizabeth

      Southern Cross (NZ flag detail) ### ODT Online Fri, 10 Jul 2015
      Southern Cross popular in flag designs
      Source: NZ Herald
      The Southern Cross and red, white and blue colours of the current flag are the most common features in proposed designs for a new flag put in by members of the public. The deadline for designs for a possible new flag is midnight on Thursday, July 16.
      Read more

  25. Peter

    I thought this was a good Art Beat column today by Peter Entwisle….very clearly argued. His point reiterating why they are having a two step referendum makes sense when I think more on it. People have to have some idea what the alternative(s) are in front of them and if there was just the second (and only) part…Do you want to change the flag?….. the automatic response could well be….No…. without any further consideration. (It probably will be anyway.)
    I hope we do change the flag. The present one is a humiliating embarrassment.
    It is odd, however, that this step in recognising, in symbolism, our full nationhood is not accompanied by the dumping of imperial British honours. It amazes me when we get lefties who accept British colonial honours. I think it is vanity taking over, irrespective of clichéd pleas that they are ‘accepting on behalf of others’ and that they feel ‘humbled’. I really admire NZ people like Sam Neil, Jim Bolger and Helen Clark who have refused such honours.

  26. Hype O'Thermia

    Today’s people came from somewhere, have histories of inward and outward migration with associated spread of innovations and fashions and manners, wars won and lost. Getting oneself in a state about NZ having been settled by British people who brought the English language and British manners and symbols and traditions is a bit strange, and feeling embarrassed about our country’s origins strikes me as weird. The English took Prince Albert’s German traditional Christmas tree and made it their tradition. We too embraced the Christmas traditions, gradually adapting them to summer Christmas – making them NZ’s traditions.

    Where a symbol or tradition came from is less and less relevant as time goes on. My nana used to talk about “home” meaning England, though she had been born here. Today if I say home nobody thinks I meant anywhere but NZ, specifically my address in Dunedin, Otago, NZ. Unlike Nana, if I said I was going home for a holiday they’d think I meant the family place I was brought up – again, in NZ. Today the only people who would be understood saying “home” meaning Britain, are recent immigrants.

    A flag is a pattern, not a logo. It is not a banner advertising “clean green tourism and exports” nor should it be a symbol most strongly linked with sports but otherwise unseen in real life by most of us. It does not define us. We define it, and just as we define words and they change over time, so does the meaning we load onto the flag. NZ English is no longer the English the settlers brought, nor is it the English of British of the same generation as the NZ descendants of those early arrivals. Should we change our language because it dates back to colonists, or is it OK to say we don’t give a stuff where it came from, it’s our language and we use it our way – geddit?

    The post-colonial cringe is a bit sad, in my opinion.

    As for honours, the whole point of them is to *honour* people who have been well above average in their accomplishments. It irks me when people get honours for “services to business” when all they did was get richer with bigger monopolies (often). It’s different when they are genuine innovators, finding ways to add value to raw materials, inventing or improving something that contributes to the wellbeing of others (not just high dividends to shareholders and obscene salaries to a few in the business).

    Where people who have done good are honoured it’s a bit pointless if the title, letters after the name, ceremony etc are so home-grown that not even home people know what they signify. It’s like winning a silver cup that turns out to be not only plastic, but plastic that falls apart when exposed to daylight. The British honours are known, especially Sirs and Dames. The minor ones further down the “Companion” and “Member” letters after the name, not many of us could put them in order of amazingness but they still benefit from being within a structure that is known here and in many other countries. All societies have ways of recognising excellence, it’s a natural thing to do. We like having heroes and role models and people who inspire us to put in a bit more effort, don’t slump, stand your full height and try to make things a bit better, you don’t have to split atoms and paint the Mona Lisa, just be your own best. And seeing our country recognising the value of people who make efforts is a way of back-patting them and endorsing for the rest of us the worth-whileness of making a damn good job of our lives.

    So what if they’re the same words as the Brits use? Readily understood words are in my opinion far better than neologisms for the sake of avoidance of British heritage.

    We came from where we came from. We’re here now. Many of us are NZers born and bred, others are newer and maybe still say “home” meaning somewhere else where most of the important people and events in their life were, where their memories take them back to. They too will find their children and grandchildren, when they cook grandparents’ “home” food, make gradual adaptations using readily home-grown or supermarket cheap veges and substituting whatever fat is currently “healthy”.

    There is nothing wrong with being who we are, a country of British – and Maori.
    And Dalmatians and people from various Pacific Islands and Germans and Chinese and assisted immigrants and refugees and….. all becoming NZers, not a one-size-fits-all woolly-pully but a kaleidoscope of traits and traditions: many precious jewel-like shapes all together in one mirrored tube, displaying our patterns in different ways according to how we’re moved from time to time.

    • Peter

      We are a multicultural country and the Union Jack in the corner no longer reflects who we are. Nor would a flag with Maori insignia. We have drifted away from our mainly British roots. As you say, Hype, we no longer call Britain ‘home’.
      My parents were English, it is part of my heritage, but Australia and now New Zealand are the countries I primarily identify with. A flag, for me, must symbolise that new reality. It doesn’t even have to have an historical context. Afterall Canada has the simple maple leaf and I know Canadians are proud of their distinctive flag. They would not go back to the old colonial flag, I’m sure.
      Any new flag or honours system will take time to bed in, but change is a dynamic process. We could seize that opportunity if we wanted to.

      • Hype O'Thermia

        Peter, “Australia and now New Zealand are the countries I primarily identify with. A flag, for me, must symbolise that new reality”. And so when your children, your grandchildren identify with a different (because it changes with time, and the aspects that are most meaningful for them may not be the same as yours) a new flag will be needed to “symbolise that new reality”?

        • Peter

          Maybe, maybe not. Who can predict the future direction of the country once we are well and truly gone?

  27. Gurglars

    Ear Ear hype

  28. Peter

    I don’t like John Key either, but just because he initiated the flag change referendum doesn’t mean I or anyone for that matter should oppose any proposal HE puts forward even if you think it is a good move.

    • Hype O'Thermia

      Timely reminder. For my part I don’t like John Key AND I don’t think the flag referenda and associated sideshows are good value for money, particularly when there is no need whatsoever to change NZ’s flag.
      Prior to JK’s decision that we must have $27million’s worth of pre-decision on what he says we want/need there were occasional small flurries of anti-British expression re the Union flag being part of NZ’s flag, but they were flurries of short duration and minor engagement, then everyone involved settled down and got involved in things that made a difference, whether cutting their hedges or protecting endangered species.

      A new flag would be a great distraction and would be a boon for t-shirt and coffee mug merchants, but in the end the NZ it is intended to represent more accurately would keep on being the NZ of today, changing gradually into the NZ of tomorrow and then, of the day after.

      It would still, like the bundle Dick Livingstone carried on a stick, carry only the baggage WE wrap in it.

  29. Peter

    Yes, I have heard the waste of money argument because of other pressing needs. Fair enough, but there will always be arguments over what is wastage of money… even for programmes intended to do good eg money intended for social welfare programmes and health spending which are eaten up by sustaining the bureacracies that look after such programmes.
    Funding the America’s Cup and rugby stadiums can be ongoing, but referendums on something like the flag tend to be once in a generation or two or three affairs. If we get it right any further call to have a change of flag referendum is unlikely if the chosen flag remains relevant.
    Even the Stars and Stripes of the USA has changed with the addition of new states over the years.

  30. Calvin Oaten

    Wasn’t it Dick Whittington, or am I thinking of someone else with a bag on a stick? It might also have been Tim Groser who has just run up the pole the flag of ‘Co2 emission reduction’ by 30% by 2030. Now there’s a banner to see the country right. Probably means as much as John Key’s flag project as well. All dead in the water long before the deadlines are met.

  31. Elizabeth

    ### NZ Herald Online 1:33 PM Wednesday Jul 29, 2015
    Second flag referendum should be scrapped if voter apathy continues – Labour
    By Nicholas Jones – NZ Herald
    If fewer than half of eligible voters take part in the first flag referendum the second should be scrapped, Labour says. Parliament has this week debated the Flag Referendums Bill, which will set up the two referendums on the flag — the first to vote on an alternative design and the second for voters to choose between the alternative and the current flag. Labour is opposing the bill despite leader Andrew Little’s own desire for a new flag and its 2014 policy to start the process to secure that change. Mr Little said that the reaction from the public meant the party did not believe the time was right to change the flag. NZME
    Read more

  32. Elizabeth

    “It is important that those designs are timeless, can work in a variety of contexts, are simple, uncluttered, balanced and have good contrast.” –John Burrows

    ### NZ Herald Online 4:39 PM Monday Aug 10, 2015
    Could one of these be our new flag?
    By Audrey Young
    The group running the flag referendum has just released a set of 40 flag designs from which the final four will most likely be chosen for the vote in November. The head of the Flag Consideration Project, Professor John Burrows said the potential new flag had to be unmistakably from new Zealand “and celebrate us as a progressive, inclusive nation that is connected to its environment and has sense of its past and vision for its future.” He said the designs would be subject to further robust checks and verification, including intensive intellectual property review.
    Read more

    NZflagsAug2015 [via NZH - supplied][Image via NZH]

    • Elizabeth

      The koru and the fern are making me gag. Hateful crass array of designs.

      • Hype O'Thermia

        The similarity of white fern to white feather makes that design the most appropriate to represent Key’s Newziln. Roll over for golfy mateship, everything’s for sale for overseas money, including integrity. Stand for NZ? Nah mate, kneel and give them what they want, take your crumbs and say thanks sir, come again sir. Neither a fighter nor a lover, that’s the flag for Key’s Newzilnd.
        New national anthem: “Ten cents a dance” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpU-mcgBJxE

        • Elizabeth

          Hype O’Thermia, you have triffic flair for national branding. Trot yourself to the Beehive asap !@@

    • Peter

      I quite like the simple koru on a green background designed by Travis Cunningham…..third from bottom on left. Not fussed on the silver fern as it is too sport associated…..and we are much more than a sporting nation. Aren’t we?

      • Elizabeth

        The simplicity attracts, but NZ is not clean green…. all that dairying (a different sort of green). Would make a good swing tag.

  33. Calvin Oaten

    I don’t mind the the centre first row red white and black by Kyle Blackwood. The red give it a lift up from the simple black and white. I think the fern is synonymous with NZ as a brand. Not just sporting. It has long been the emblem/brand. The Canadian maple is similar in context.

  34. Mike

    I’ve always liked the Hunterwasser (bottom middle) – but I also like the one 4 rows above that that shows the koru more as an ubrolling fern – it reminds me of the Canadian flag as having one thing unencumbered with other symbolism

    Of course one should remember yesterday’s Tremain from the ODT (printed before the flags were released …..)

    • Hype O'Thermia

      Tremaine is a direct descendant of the kid who pointed out “The king is in the altogether, the altogether…”.

  35. Calvin Oaten

    That cartoon is all about entropy. Whose? Take your pick.

  36. Elizabeth

    Design should never be by committee, who said that.

  37. Mike

    But the committee has such world renowned experts on graphical design as Peter Chin, how could they go wrong?

  38. Elizabeth

    BBC: New Zealand selects 40 designs for new flag
    10 August 2015 Last updated at 14:29 BST
    New Zealand has published 40 designs, one of which could become its new national flag. [video]
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-33851165

  39. Elizabeth

    LACK OF INNOVATION —SHOP DESIGN

    ### ODT Online Tue, 11 Aug 2015
    PM picks favourite flag design
    Prime Minister John Key has a clear favourite from the long list of designs put forward in the flag review. […] Mr Key today said his favourites involved a silver fern and he liked the red and blue design by Kyle Lockwood, of Wellington, with the fern and the southern cross.
    Read more

    NZFlag option 2166-kyle-lockwood-silver-fern-final www.govt.nz (red, white and blue)Kyle Lockwood – Silver Fern (Red, White and Blue)

    Flag of New Zealand [en.wikipedia.org] 1Flag of New Zealand (existing)

  40. Elizabeth

    The debates will be long and hard on this contentious issue. A finalist and a panel member come forth and opine.

    ### idealog.co.nz 11 Aug 2015
    The fate of the flag: the design thinking behind NZ’s biggest rebrand
    By Holly Bagge
    The re-design of the New Zealand flag has been a source of vigorous debate. New Zealanders have questioned whether we can afford the $26 million when so many other social systems need attention. Other New Zealanders have wondered whether we ought to redesign it at all when our forefathers fought and died under the flag while others think the change is long past due and we ought to rid ourselves of the Union Jack for another emblem more befitting of our current identity. Then of course there’s the design perspective. Some have questioned whether sourcing designs from the public was the way to go and have wondered whether the panel has enough design nous to make the right decision. We asked Designworks owner Sven Baker who had five designs make the long list what he thinks, we also had a chat to panel member Nicky Bell to see what the panel thinks a good flag should represent.
    Read more

  41. Simon

    The choice of flag by the PM is very interesting. A white feather, with an emerging red background. Could this be a signal as to the future of NZ. The white feather of surrender to the coming wave of a red financial takeover from China.

  42. Elizabeth

    ### ODT Online Wed, 12 Aug 2015
    Editorial: Flagging the choices narrowed
    OPINION Ferns, koru and Southern Crosses are the hallmarks of the 40 designs longlisted by the Flag Consideration Panel for our new national ensign. Unsurprisingly, there has been criticism about the selections which were taken from the 10,292 submitted by New Zealanders from all walks of life. Among some of the feedback has been that the flags lack innovation, mean little to Maori, do not reflect our heritage, and are little more than corporate logos and familiar symbols.
    Read more

  43. Elizabeth

    New Zealand Herald montage:

    NZ Flag option - Mahe Drysdale celebrates Olympic Gold, 2012 [montage via NZ Herald]

    NZH: Would you stand and wave this flag? (15.8.15)

  44. Elizabeth

    ### NZ Herald Online 5:00 AM Sunday Aug 16, 2015
    Sack the Queen, invade Australia
    By Rodney Hide
    OPINION The problem with changing the flag is that it lacks historical rationale. Imagine being asked the background. “Oh, the Prime Minister didn’t like the old one. ‘Not good branding,’ he said. We had an expert panel. A competition. And this won. Just. It cost millions.”
    The reason for the change is not uplifting, tear-jerking or moving. It’s blah. It’s a corporate brand change through competition and public acclamation.
    Flag change should be meaningful. The change needs to mark a historical event, like sacking the Queen, declaring ourselves a Maori nation or successfully invading Australia.
    Without a critical juncture, the flag change lacks oomph. It lacks punch. It lacks history.
    There’s no story to tell with the new flag.
    Read more

  45. Elizabeth

    Garrick Tremain 13 Aug 2015

  46. Elizabeth

    Someone worth listening to in matters of design, design process and design criticism: Peter Haythornthwaite. Google that name.

    ODT 17.8.15 (page 9)
    ODT 17.8.15 Opinion Haythornthwaite p9

    ### nbr.co.nz Tue, 27 Nov 2012
    Honorary doctorate for top NZ designer
    By Chris Keall – NBR staff
    One of New Zealand’s leading designers, Peter Haythornthwaite, will be awarded an honorary doctorate in science during Victoria University’s December graduation.
    Peter Haythornthwaite is an industrial designer whose extensive creative output has garnered national and international recognition. During a career spanning over four decades, he has established several successful design companies and received numerous awards, including the 2003 Designers Institute of New Zealand John Britten Award.
    In 2007, Mr Haythornthwaite and his creative team received one of the world’s highest design industry accolades – a prestigious gold medal in the Industrial Designers Society of America’s IDEA awards – for the LOMAK (Light Operated Mouse and Keyboard) design, which enables people with physical impairments to use computers more easily through the use of light sensor technology.
    LOMAK was subsequently included in the permanent collection of New York’s Museum of Modern Art.
    Read more

  47. Elizabeth

    Fingers down back of the throat, if Swing-tags Key likes them.

    ### ODT Online Mon, 31 Aug 2015
    Shortlisted flag designs ‘excellent’
    Source: NZ Herald
    The final four alternative flag designs are to be released tomorrow morning, and Prime Minister John Key says he could vote for three of them over the current flag. […] The panel has now whittled down the shortlist to four designs. Cabinet was shown the designs today, and Mr Key said they were “excellent”.
    Read more

  48. Hype O'Thermia

    Cabinet’s premier spokesman on vexillology announced today, “I don’t know a flag from a logo BUT I KNOW WHAT I LIKE.”

  49. photonz

    I spent several years taking overseas tours fulled with Aussies, Kiwis and others. What was very apparent was 75% of Aussies and Kiwis couldn’t tell the difference between our flags when asked what the difference was. And pretty much 100% of others had no idea of what our flag looked like.

    That was many years ago, but just days ago a tv crew in Auckland found despite the current debate, there are still very large numbers of Kiwis who don’t know their own countries flag.

    Time to get a flag that says “New Zealand” rather than “Almost Australia”.

  50. Mike

    All hail, HypnoFlag!

  51. Mike

    Oh and by the way, none of the flags show a silver fern, if they did the fronds on each side would come out halfway between the fronds on the other side, not directly opposite them.

    • photonz

      Of all the silver ferns I’ve done macro photography on, the majority only have a slight offset.

      Which is exactly what the flag designs have if you look at them closely.

      Surely we’ve grown up enough as a nation that we don’t have to have another country’s flag as the major feature of our flag.

    • Hype O'Thermia

      They look like wattle leaves.

  52. photonz

    You meant like in the same way the current flag doesn’t actually show the Southern Cross, because instead of stars it has five-pointed polygons with a red centre and white outlines?

  53. Tim

    That’s funny, Mike.
    It’s like the Australian fern!

  54. Hype O'Thermia

    Ferns grow in many countries. Silver ferns don’t grow in Otago. Dandelions grow all over NZ……

    • photonz

      Wrong – In Otago you’ll find silver ferns in the Catlins.

      And it naturally occurs in no other country in the world.

      But can be found by the tens of thousands in Europe on our WWI and WWII Kiwi graves.

      So even a century ago it was considered a more important symbol of New Zealand than our current flag.

  55. Elizabeth

    nz-flag2 [flagz.co.nz]

    A small majority – 53 per cent – said they did not support a change and 23 per cent said they did support change in principle.

    ### NZ Herald Online 4:42 PM Tuesday Sep 1, 2015
    NZ flag referendum: The final four designs revealed
    By Claire Trevett – NZH deputy political editor
    The wait is over: the final four designs for a proposed new national flag have been revealed. The alternative designs were revealed by the Flag Consideration Panel in Wellington this morning as a new poll shows nearly half of voters are open to a change. A mammoth 10,000 submissions poured in earlier this year, which were later narrowed down to a long-list of 40 flag designs. The final four designs were:

    • Silver Fern (Black & White) – by Alofi Kanter, from Auckland.
    • Silver Fern (Red, White and Blue) – by Kyle Lockwood, originally from
    Wellington
    • Silver Fern (Black, White and Blue) – also by Lockwood
    • Koru – by Andrew Fyfe from Wellington

    Three of the four designs feature the silver fern, including two by Lockwood.
    Read more + Videos

    flag1 Silver Fern (Black & White)flag2 Silver Fern (Red, White and Blue)flag1 Silver Fern (Black, White and Blue)nz flag3 koru

  56. Elizabeth

    This is not inspiring. Key more clearly than ever states the case as a Sport exercise – as if that’s all a national flag should speak to and convey. [The twitter spoofs on the koru are very entertaining.]

    3News: Final four NZ flags found

    ONE News: Kiwis give their thoughts on the four flag designs

  57. Elizabeth

    Aside: Bright vulgar and more secure….
    $40M makeover for New Zealand banknotes

    NZ notes [tvnz.co.nz - ONE News]

    ONE News: Dramatic changes are coming to a number of businesses following the Reserve Bank’s release of new banknotes today
    Prime Minister John Key was on hand as the new designs were officially revealed this morning, and said he thought New Zealanders were likely to enjoy the new, bright designs. “They’re very clear and very bright and I think most New Zealanders will embrace change,” he said.
    Read more + Video

  58. Elizabeth

    ### ODT Online Thu, 3 Sep 2015
    Editorial: No time to flag our duty
    OPINION The decision has been made on the four flag designs on which New Zealanders will soon vote but the discussion and debate is unlikely to wane as many express their disappointment at the choices. […] This is a political issue, and the placating words by the flag panel do not make it anything else but it being driven by Mr Key.
    Read more

    • Hype O'Thermia

      Given Key’s oft-expressed wish for a fern-patterned flag (and no sign that his appreciation of design is beyond mediocre on a good day) it is no wonder that the Panel chose those 4. Three to choose the master, and one rank outsider.
      One wouldn’t want to rule oneself out of future sinecures.

  59. Gurglars

    Has anyone noticed that the flag choosers are paid $26 million or part thereof and the designers are paid SFA.

    We’d better keep the old flag that is a superb example of colonialism.

    And the next problem is who owns the design once chosen?

  60. Elizabeth

    The chosen design (if any) will be owned by the Crown – established as a condition of entry in the flag design competition.

  61. Elizabeth

    Says it all….

    Search engine term at What if? today:
    *black & blue flag nz it’s how we’re beating our children to death*

  62. Elizabeth

    redpeak_1aulca1-1aulcb3 [via nz.news.yahoo.com]The Red Peak flag [via nz.news.yahoo.com]

    ### NZ Herald Online Sun, 6 Sep 2015
    Campaign pushes for fifth flag option
    By Claire Trevett – NZ Herald
    A campaign to try to force the Government to add a fifth design to the shortlisted alternative flags has almost 14,500 signatures after three days – but the Government has ruled out any changes. A petition was set up at Change.org to push the case for Aaron’s Dustin’s design of ‘Red Peak’ after a groundswell of support for it on social media. However, it may be too little too late for fans of the flag which was on the long list of 40 but did not make the final cut. The shortlisted four will be voted on in a referendum in November. A spokesman for Flag minister Bill English said there would be no changes to the shortlist.
    Read more

    ****

    ### NZ Herald Online 5:00 AM Sunday Sep 6, 2015
    New figures reveal hidden costs of replacing flag
    By Kirsty Wynn – Herald on Sunday
    The $25 million spent on planning a new flag is only the beginning – hundreds of thousands more will be needed if a new ensign is adopted. Figures compiled by the Ministry of Justice reveal Government departments alone will have to spend more than $660,000 to get new flags. The New Zealand Defence Force has the most flags. Its 600 standard outdoor flags will cost $459 each to replace. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has 318 and the Police have 157 flying at stations around the country. The cost to replace Government department stocks of 1,278 outdoor ones, 249 indoor ones, 11 ceremonial flags and 547 that flap around on car pennants and tables is estimated at $663,612. The figure does not take into account the 2600 schools that would need to replace the national flag. Also not included is the cost for local councils, airports, ports, tertiary providers and state owned enterprises such as NZ Post, KiwiRail, Air New Zealand and NZTA, which issues licences that have the New Zealand flag on them.
    Read more

    • Elizabeth

      ODT: Red peak flag: Can you spot the difference?
      Popular flag design Red Peak is currently being used as the logo of an American engineering firm. Peak Engineering in North Carolina has been using a logo featuring a red triangle, white chevron and two black triangles since 2008. Red Peak, the design that has seen a swell of support for inclusion in the referendum for a new New Zealand flag, is similar, but has a blue triangle in place of one black triangle.

      • Hype O'Thermia

        Bwahahahaha! Was someone taking the p*ss, do you think? It’s a damn good logo, and if we have to have a logo for a flag it’s the least shoddy of the 4 + 1.

        • photonz

          It’s not a bad design, but the problem is there’s not a single thing on it that says “New Zealand”. And in a sea of flags that are just simple lines or triangles, it’s just one more.

  63. Peter

    Now there is a real dilemma for those, like myself, who want a change of flag, but now find themselves totally unethusiastic about the four chosen ones. What does one do? Don’t vote or choose the lesser evil option.
    For me that is the black and white koru design that has simplicity going for it, but the colours are dreadful. (Why in a supposedly Clean, Green, Pure NZ (BS) would black and white, instead of green, be better as a colour scheme?)
    The four chosen options are a manipulation to get the silver fern with the stars option….either one. Key’s preference. This flag panel has ballsed it all up. Not surprised, as Peter Chin is on it for a start.

    • photonz

      My favourite designs didn’t make the top four either, however I didn’t get to chose the current flag either.

      When given the choice of 40 different designs, people are going to have a large variety of opinions, so I would think the significant majority of people are not going to get their favourites.

      Perhaps a referendum to reduce the 40 designs down to four would have been a good idea, but there’s already been a significant volume of whinging that nearly $6 a person to decide on a new flag is a big waste of money (personally I think that’s incredibly cheap).

      Though not the best designs, any are better than a flag that borrows another country’s flag for its main part, and is indistinguishable from Australia’s flag to most of the world, and large parts of Australia and NZ.

    • Jenny

      I suppose you would prefer a kangaroo on OUR flag Peter.

  64. Gurglars

    New Zealand should take a fresh view of nationalism and not have any flag at all. Now that would stand us out as pioneers not slaves to imperialism.

    Consider the savings- We know of the budgeted $26,000,000 that would have been far better spent on increasing knowledge, but what about the tremendous unconsidered cost to all who use flags now!

    The army, navy and airforce will have to spend countless millions on paint, flags, letterhead, badges for uniforms etc etc etc.

    Every government department the same new flags, new letterhead.

    It’s just like the conversion to decimal currency and the conversion to metres the greatest waste of public money designed apparently to assist stupid kids to add up more easily.

    Try to get any shop staff to calculate decimal currency without a calculator!

    What is it about governments determined to waste as much money as they possibly can annually to increase their budgets for next year and thus to increase salaries for their staff.

    As C. Northcote Parkinson said,

    Taxes will rise until the customer complains.

  65. Elizabeth

    Last week at The Standard….

    Posted by Notices And Features at 12:34 pm, 3 Sep 201595 comments
    A flag that suits Key’s NZ
    Lyndon Hood in a work of bleak genius….

    nz-flag-refugee-crisis-lyndon-hood [via thestandard.org.nz 3.9.15]

    ODT: NZ to take 750 Syrian refugees

  66. photonz

    Bleak genius, or plagiarism of a very clever take on the silver fern?
    http://ww100.govt.nz/following-in-their-footsteps-the-making-of-nga-tapuwae

  67. Elizabeth

    Builds on shared visual language – acceptable from my point of view.

    Nga Tapuwae New Zealand First World War trails logo [via ww100.govt.nz]Nga Tapuwae logo (via ww100.govt.nz)

    Others have referred to stylised fern renderings as a bunch of tombstones with cast shadow.

    A national/international Gallipoli complex…

    • Mike

      Do you mean like this?

      • Elizabeth

        Hilarious !!

        (not a good confession, I come from ‘architecture’ where buildings infinitely copy, recreate and stretch others….)

      • photonz

        It’s certainly very close to one of the the Kyle Lockwood designs (which he designed in the early 2000s)

        • Mike

          To me it simply shows that the designs Key’s yes-men have chosen are essentially busy corporate logos – I want to change the flag but I want something simple and striking that I can be proud of.

          Remember the flag panel didn’t get the final say on the 4 choices, they had to choose 4 that Key’s cabinet would approve.

          BTW: RadioNZ offers a DIY flag kit, make your own
          http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/283111/not-happy-build-a-better-flag

        • photonz

          So you think the alternative flag that has been more popular with Kiwis than any other (it has has won over 15 flag design competitions and popularity polls over the the last decade), should NOT be in the final four?

        • Mike

          None of them appeal to me, none meet my criteria above: simple, striking, something I can be proud of – none are “my” flag.

        • photonz

          We are 4.5 million people with thousands of different preferences, all choosing ONE new flag. So it’s inevitable that most people will not get “their” personal choice of flag.

          But it’s more input than we had for the current one.

        • Hype O'Thermia

          All his designs had the same bland sub-Sacchi agency look. Consistent mediocrity.

        • photonz

          Yet they win poll after poll, and design competition after design competition. And have done for years.

          If you can do a better design, let’s see it.

        • Hype O'Thermia

          Decision by committee works like this.
          Seldom does an outstanding design appeal to everyone, people like it or loathe it. So those ones are chucked off the list.
          The rubbish ones are chucked off the list.

          The list now consists of mediocrities. The job of the committee is to gradually winnow out any that elicit any response.

          By now the list consists entirely of mediocrities so un-outstanding that nobody can muster up an opinion one way or another.

          Where there is a Big Cheese who picked the committee members and has in his power the gift of other nice little earners, and his preference is well known, the list of “meh” is further reduced until the requirement is reached. And so as not to look like a stitch-up, which would show lack of appreciation of the process and reflect badly on themselves and on the Big Cheese, a rank outsider is included in the field so it can trip at the first hurdle.
          Out.

        • photonz

          Wow. How devious of them to conduct a big conspiracy to get a flag chosen that was already very popular.

          As you say, it’s a big stitch-up. If it all goes according to their devious plan, we’re going to end up with the most popular flag choice, instead of the “right” choice. That’s terrible.

  68. Elizabeth

    Postie Plus window, Centre City Mall today…..

    Postie Plus window 20150908_173015 (1)

  69. Gurglars

    Now that’s CLASSY!

  70. Elizabeth

    39 Dunedin Television Published on Sep 8, 2015
    Your word on getting a new flag

    ### dunedintv.co.nz Wed, 9 Sep 2015
    Your word on getting a new flag
    The country’s final four flag designs have been selected for public vote in an upcoming national referendum.
    Ch39 Link

  71. Elizabeth

    39 Dunedin Television Poll (result thus far)

    Does New Zealand need a new flag?

    Yes — 18% (18 votes)
    No — 82% (82 votes)
    Total votes: 100

  72. Elizabeth

    John Key and the Flag Consideration Panel have got the silver fern wrong, writes David Ellison, of Karitane.

    ### ODT Online Thu, 10 Sep 2015
    Silver fern must prevail
    By David Ellison
    OPINION It is disheartening to watch the flag debate. What could have been a well-informed and creative process where historians and experts lead the discussion has descended into a celebrity-driven fad-fest. John Key has gone about the Flag Consideration Process the wrong way. A nation’s flag must endure the generations, not just the latest unscientific poll or media trend. Instead of a discussion about our proud history and icons, it has been about John Key’s legacy. What hasn’t helped is the position of the Labour Party and the RSA. Their absence from any constructive debate has surrendered the microphone to John Key sycophants and social media viral hysteria. What we have ended up with are four poor flag designs of little resonance, resilience, or relevance.
    Read more

    ● David Ellison is a Kai Tahu upoko, retired soldier and educator.

  73. Elizabeth

    Aside, here’s a light little flag number caught this afternoon:

    ….FALSE FLAGS AND BLACK OPS….

    KillingJokeVEVO Published on Sep 11, 2015
    Killing Joke – I Am The Virus (Lyric Video)
    Killing Jokes’s lyric video for ‘I Am The Virus’ from the album, ‘Pylon’ – available via Spinefarm Records 23rd October 2015.

    Sample comments at YouTube:

    deceiver 4 days ago
    What better date than 9/11 to release a Killing Joke song ?

    figurehead1971 3 days ago
    Have to say this song is a bit Killing Joke by numbers….but what fucking numbers!

    Colour, brand and flag shapes…. “all for a cold sore”

    Blur Published on Sep 8, 2015
    Blur – I Broadcast (Official Video)
    New album ‘The Magic Whip’ out now. Album available on CD, vinyl and as a digital download.

  74. Elizabeth

    Process has become one of hubris, ignominy and division. (ODT)

    ### ODT Online Thu, 17 Sep 2015
    Editorial: Flag farce mockery of process
    OPINION Does New Zealand need a new flag? Do New Zealanders want a new flag? Is the plan to change the flag based on public sentiment or political expediency? Are the legislative changes to enable the process a good use of Parliamentary time? […] This situation is now a complete farce. It is making us a laughing stock, is costing time, money and energy.
    Read more

  75. Elizabeth

    R4NEII Uploaded on Sep 25, 2009
    [HD] Radiohead – The National Anthem (Glastonbury 2003)
    Everyone
    Everyone around here
    Everyone is so near
    It’s holding on
    It’s holding on

    Everyone
    Everyone is so near
    Everyone has got the fear
    It’s holding on
    It’s holding on

    It’s holding on
    It’s holding on
    It’s holding on

    Wikipedia: The National Anthem (song) | Thom Yorke | Radiohead

  76. Elizabeth

    Holding on………… to corporate identity.

    This is getting really SILLY.
    J Key PM goes mad.

    How would Peak Engineering (Ca) treat NZ Govt / Crown on copyright infringement and make some money ???
    See previous comments, here and here.

    ### ODT Online Wed, 23 Sep 2015
    Red peak flag to be fifth option
    Source: NZ Herald
    The Red Peak flag will be added as a fifth option in the flag referendum, Prime Minister John Key has confirmed. The Government has agreed to pick-up legislation that was put forward by the Green Party this afternoon, which means the Red Peak design will join the four flag alternatives already selected.
    Read more

    • Elizabeth
      This has degenerated into a typical NZ farce with all the daft politicians chipping in for their 2 bob’s worth.
      The so called ‘peak’ idea is in reality just a couple of corners of the union flag joined together if you have a look at it. It is unquestionably the Union flag in drag.

      2 corners of union flag joined

      H.M. would undoubtedly approve and Jonkey would be a sitter for a gong.

      He should be told to sit in the corner now.

    • Hype O'Thermia

      This is something I’ve been wondering about: it’s already someone else’s logo. Registered, copyrighted etc etc for sure. Look at the heavy legal strafing the Blackball Hilton got for daring to use the name Hilton, like anyone was going to be confused.
      Given NZ politicians’ fondness for selling the country’s land and businesses off to the highest or any bidder, it may appear that Peak Engineering has outbid the Chinese for total ownership of this once-British colony.

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