Wind damage to stadium

### ODT Online Tue, 7 Sep 2010
Wind tears iron from stadium wall
By John Lewis
Construction workers at Dunedin’s Forsyth Barr Stadium spent much of yesterday retrieving dozens of sheets of iron from the Leith Stream after they were blown off the south stand in gale force winds on Sunday.

“People should not be the least bit concerned about the iron because the completed product will be able to withstand all extreme weather conditions.”
-Malcolm Farry, Carisbrook Stadium Trust

Read more

Posted by Elizabeth Kerr


Filed under Architecture, Design, Project management, Stadiums

67 responses to “Wind damage to stadium

  1. Elizabeth

    Sadly, as the result of snow…

    ### ODT Online Sat, 18 Sep 2010
    Loss of stadium ‘shatters’ Southland
    Stadium Southland users were forced to flee falling debris as the roof of the home of Southland sport collapsed under heavy “very wet” snow. Wild and windy storms are blasting parts of the country. Invercargill was blanketed and between 10-20cm of snow has fallen in coastal parts of Southland. NZPA
    Read more

    It’s insured “for every possible outcome”…

  2. David

    Which begs the question – what snow loading is our new stadium designed for?

    We’ve been assured snow loadings are part of the design, but we haven’t been told how much.

    Stadium Southland collapsed with just 10cm of snow.

    What happens if we get a dump like in 1939 with over a half metre at sea level?

  3. Peter

    I am in no doubt that Malcolm will come forward – once again – with the most solemn of assurances – like all his other assurances – and we will believe him – because we always have – and only ‘naysayers’ will question him about his assurances – like they always will. Look out for tomorrow’s ODT.

  4. James

    What happens if we get a dump like in 1939 with over a half metre at sea level?

    People in Auckland and Kaikohe will be excited about snow lying on the ground, much like last time?

    Since Stadium Southland was built, the building code has been changed, so that buildings in the South Island are required to bear higher snow-loadings. The current snow loading to which the Dunedin Stadium has presumably been designed is 0.9kPa. That translates to approximately ~90 kg on a square metre. Half a metre of water would weight ~500kg on square metre, snow is usually less dense, so we’ll assume half a metre of snow will weigh under 450kg. In that case, if it complies with the building code, then it should be fine.

    Relatedly, ETFE has a tensile strength of 48 MPa. I’m not sure how big each pillow is, and the pull generated on the surface generated by weight from above is more difficult to calculate. Thus, the roof itself is pretty strong. Ideally, the pillows would shear off rather than bringing the structural steel down. But as I said, presumably designed to withstand half a metre of snow.

  5. Anonymous

    I am sure that Amalgamated Building Ltd will have learned from the Stadium Southland roof collapse and would not be concerned about the structural integrity of any other roofed stadium project with which they might be involved.

  6. Peter

    News Flash. We don’t have to wait for tomorrow’s ODT. The Sunday Star Times, on page B1 – Sport Section – has already reported Malcolm.
    He says, ‘The design of our stadium, and in particular the roof, has been meticulously dealt with……..We are confident Forsyth Barr Stadium can withstand any act of God.’ Malcolm is all knowing.

    • Elizabeth

      ### Last updated 05:00 19/09/2010
      Roof collapse ‘devastating’
      By Greg Ford – Sunday Star Times
      Southland sporting icon Robyn Broughton said the province was left “devastated” yesterday after its premier indoor sporting stadium collapsed under the weight of a massive snow storm. The roof of the main stadium where trans-Tasman ANZ netball franchise the Southern Steel play their home matches collapsed on to the court surface and surrounding spectator seating at 11am in Invercargill yesterday.

      Dunedin’s new indoor World Rugby Cup stadium would successfully stand up to the snowstorm that felled Stadium Southland, officials claimed last night. Forsyth Barr Stadium, which is being built and features a transparent roof, is scheduled to host three RWC pool games this time next year. Stadium trust chairman Malcolm Farry said the complex would handle anything the elements threw at it 12 months from now. “The design of our stadium, and in particular the roof, has been meticulously dealt with,” Farry said. “We’ve had international experts dealing with all sorts of loading, including snow loading … we are confident Forsyth Barr Stadium can withstand any act of God.”

      Read more

  7. Russell Garbutt

    We don’t have to wait for another ODT all is OK story – our own saviour, Malcolm Farry, is quoted in the Sunday Star Times as saying:


    DUNEDIN’S NEW indoor World Rugby Cup stadium would successfully stand up to the snowstorm that felled Stadium Southland, officials claimed last night.

    Forsyth Barr Stadium, which is being built and features a transparent roof, is scheduled to host three RWC pool games this time next year.

    Stadium trust chairman Malcolm Farry said the complex would handle anything the elements threw at it 12 months from now.

    “The design of our stadium, and in particular the roof, has been meticulously dealt with,” Farry said. “We’ve had international experts dealing with all sorts of loading, including snow loading … we are confident Forsyth Barr Stadium can withstand any act of God.””

    The only thing that the new rugby stadium does contribute in this way is crushing debt levels. Mind you, seemed to me that we got some strongish winds that blew quite a few of the protective cladding off a couple of weeks ago – maybe they weren’t meticulously dealt with by international experts?

    But back to the snow – if it is factual that only 10cm of snow led to a sudden and catastrophic roof failure in Invercargill, and the snow was “wet”, then some assumptions can be made on the weight on the roof that caused the collapse.

    Generally there has been a rule of thumb that snow to water conversion is 10:1, ie a 10cm fall of snow will weigh about the same as 1cm of water. 1mm of water equates to 1kg per sq metre. So the snow on the stadium roof was about 10kg per square metre which doesn’t seem a great deal. Even, because of its “wetness” it was twice this figure, 20kg per square metre of load still doesn’t seem too untoward. Clearly the engineers got it wrong…..

    • Elizabeth

      Oh c’mon. This was not an act of god (lower case) – somebody stuffed up big time with the design.

      ### ODT Online Sun, 19 Sep 2010
      Investigation into stadium collapse
      Invercargill mayor Tim Shadbolt says he will launch an investigation into why the roof of the $10 million Stadium Southland collapsed under the weight of wet snow on Saturday morning.

      Mr Shadbolt told TV3 there were concerns about its structural soundness since it was built 10 years ago. He said the Invercargill City Council planned to investigate whether correct procedures were followed.

      Read more

  8. James

    Clearly the engineers got it wrong…..

    Or the old building code got it wrong. The 2008 revision to AS/NZS 1170 that I mentioned upthread was specifically in response to unexpectedly heavy snowfalls at low altitudes. Luckily, the new stadium here will have to comply with the enhanced standards.

  9. Peter

    I notice in today’s ODT, DVML operations director, Darren Burden, says the sloping roof and non stick plastic roofing material will prevent a similar thing happening with the Dunedin stadium. This is contradicted by retired DCC technical services engineer, John Henderson, who says sloping roofs did not of themselves prevent snow induced collapses. Who do you believe?

    • Elizabeth

      ### ODT Online Mon, 20 Sep 2010
      Could it happen to Dunedin stadium?
      By Eileen Goodwin
      Dunedin’s Forsyth Barr Stadium is being built to withstand a one-in-500-year snowfall, says Dunedin Venues operations director Darren Burden. Mr Burden said the stadium would be strong enough to take up to one and a-half metres of snow.
      Read more

  10. Anonymous

    The word today from my little bird (who is seldom wrong) regarding Forbar progress: “Book for the ‘Brook”.

    • Elizabeth

      Anonymous, admit I have a weakness for catchy little phrases –
      Of course, Fubar is supposed to be a multipurpose stadium, if it’s not ready for RWC 2011 so what. Planning the building for rugby use was always ad hoc disastrous, more than a snow storm…

      Rugby shouldn’t have been the priority for the stadium’s formal design, ever! Or its construction timeline.

  11. Kiwifly

    of course we believe you and the “unnamed”source you quote ….not

  12. Pedant

    @ James

    0.9 kPa equates to approximately 90 kilograms, not 900.

  13. Phil

    Having spent a bit of time in the Nordic countries, I’ve been impressed about how well those countries have adapted to a consistantly harsher climate. I was very surprised to see a large number of flat roof buildings. But, then I found out that they tend to use concrete a lot more than we do for structural work. Including roof structures. Primarily for insulation purposes. Timber framed structures do have a steeper slope. But the key difference between those countries, and NZ, is the difference in humidity levels during winter. Nordic winters are much colder (minus 30 and beyond) so the air is much drier. Meaning that the snow falls, while much deeper, weigh a lot less. As much as 75% less than the wet snow found here. It’s a difference of about 100kg per square metre for a 300mm deep pile of snow. That’s not taking into account any wind loadings that the roof structure might also being subjected to.

    Looking realistically at what happened over the weekend, I’m included to side with the stadium team in Dunedin. What happened was a freak event. How many people can remember a modern building collapsing under snow loading in New Zealand ? I can’t. The current building regulations are good, and the cater for all the foreseeable risks which are likely to happen. It is physically and logistically impossible to design for everything from tornadoes to plagues of locusts. At some point you have to draw a line under those events which have a reasonable likelihood of occurring. We all make the same decisions every day.

  14. Peter

    Additional to that, Phil, Malcolm tells us that not even an act of God will destroy the roof! I now feel so comforted knowing that.

  15. David

    Phil – I would disagree that 10cm of wet snow is a freak event.

    If it was really that bad, roofs all over Invercargill would have collapsed.

    What it tells us is that out of thousands of buildings in Invercargill – new or old – Stadium Southland had pretty much the weakest snow loadings of all.

    And that’s a very clear stuff up in a new public building.

  16. Peter

    I would think that ‘the gloves are off’ concerning what constitutes a freak climatic event with climate change – if you happen to believe in it of course.

  17. David

    Considering within some people’s living memory we’ve had half a metre of snow at sea level in Dunedin, then 10cm in Invercargill shouldn’t surprise anyone.

  18. Phil

    Sorry, David, but I’ve experienced half a metre of snow coming down in the middle of town at sea level over an 8 hour period. Once in 45 years. And, it wasn’t in Dunedin. Bit of an urban legend, that one. Trust me, when you’re somewhere where half a metre of snow comes down, you know all about it.

    I still believe that the events in the weekend should be treated in isolation. If this was a regular weather occurence, then why had the Invercargill stadium, warehouse, and the various other buildings, not suffered structural failure every winter since the day they had been built? I accept, from reading the various reports, that there were some design compromises made which have reduced the safety factor margins on the stadium. And that’s a mistake. But there has to be more to it than just that, or it would have happened previously. This isn’t the first dumping of snow in Invercargill since the building of the stadium. And absolutely nothing to link the design of that stadium with the design of this stadium.

  19. David

    Phil says – “Bit of an urban legend, that one.”


    I was talking to people about it just yesterday. They lived within 100m of St Clair beach and the snow came halfway up their gate.

    The Met Service says the 1939 snow in Dunedin was between 1m in the hill suburbs and 35cm at St Kilda.

    As for Stadium Southland, it’s very obviously a structural cock up – I don’t buy for one second that 10cm of snow is a “freak event”.

    It’s a bit of a clue that a new public building completely collapses when thousands of other buildings didn’t.

    It should be the strongest building – not the first to fail.

    • Elizabeth

      ### ODT Online Mon, 20 Sep 2010
      Govt seeks answers to roof collapse
      Building and Construction Minister Maurice Williamson is going to Invercargill to find out why the roof of the $10 million Stadium Southland collapsed under the weight of snow on Saturday.
      Prime Minister John Key said Cabinet had discussed the roof collapse today and decided it needed to know what had happened. “This is actually a modern building that has collapsed under a very small amount of snow relevant to what the Building Code indicates it should be able to withstand,” he said at his post-Cabinet press conference. “So something has gone seriously wrong there and I think we need to understand that a little bit better.”
      Read more

  20. Russell Garbutt

    Phil is certainly incorrect about Dunedin not receiving deep snow falls – the fall referred to by David resulted in members of the Otago Ski Club skiing up to the Highcliff transmission site to take food etc to the technicians that had been trapped for some days.

    Nonetheless, I note that my “rules of thumb” in relation to weight of wet snow per square metre have not been contradicted.

    What gets up my hooter is people talking about “freak” falls – a little like people talking about “freak waves” when their boat overturns when going over the bar at Taieri Mouth. I suggest that a truly “freak event” is just that. A fall of 10cm of wet snow in a coastal environment at this latitude is not a freak event.

    It also seems blindingly obvious that if this roof collapsed, then it can only be due to a structural failure (welding joints or similar) or a design failure.

  21. Peter

    It would be interesting to know if the design changed ‘to be within budget’ with shortcuts made that compromised the building’s structural safety. Note. I am just speculating. I am not an expert.

  22. Stu

    The similar incident that springs to mind is the German ice-rink collapse:

    Note the comment on the Wikipedia article: “…the accumulated snow was below the limit for the roof.”

    It’s a given that there was a structural failure in Invercargill.
    It hasn’t been established if that was due to snow loading.

    The level of snowfall was not particularly large.

    I’m surprised it has been cleared for demolition so quickly.

  23. James

    Russell: “Nonetheless, I note that my “rules of thumb” in relation to weight of wet snow per square metre have not been contradicted.”

    Actually, they are quite wrong. If you read the NIWA report I mentioned upthread, commissioned after the big 2006 snow, they note that at low altitudes where it is a bit warmer, snow can be at 30-40% of the weight of water. It is in the light of this that the building code has been changed, so that at a minimum, it has to be able to take 0.9kPa or 90kg/m2 (thanks to anon for the tip-off on my physics fail). However, that is only the minimum, and there is some other calculation beyond that.

    In summary, despite whatever other engineering issues might be uncovered, the building code was changed after Stadium Southland was built, the Dunedin stadium will be designed to the new code, and one of the main reasons for the change was unexpectedly high loadings at lower altitudes (0-500m).

    {Your previous post has been amended. We would not pretend to be expert interpreters of the Building Code here or claim structural engineering expertise unless professionally accredited and proven. -Eds}

    • Elizabeth

      ### ODT Online Tue, 21 Sep 2010
      ‘Something has gone seriously wrong’
      By Hamish McNeilly
      Speculation over the collapse of Stadium Southland by Invercargill Mayor Tim Shadbolt has been dismissed as electioneering, but he maintains there were concerns with the structure from the outset. Demolition of the 10-year-old facility is earmarked to begin today – weather permitting – but a report on why heavy snow led to the collapse of the roof may be weeks away.

      The Institution of Professional Engineers New Zealand issued a statement yesterday saying it would be possible, once the details of the collapse were known, to assess whether the conditions exceeded those loadings or if the building failed prematurely. “Should we find that there is cause for concern in regards to the standard of engineering work, we have a process to deal with that. If there is a need for the loadings standard to be reviewed then IPENZ would certainly act,” chief executive Dr Andrew Cleland said.

      Read more

      • Elizabeth

        ### Last updated 19:23 21/09/2010
        Stronger roof would have saved stadium – minister
        Initial inquiries into the Stadium Southland collapse show it was built when roof weight-bearing requirements were lower than they are now, Building and Construction Minister Maurice Williamson says. Mr Williamson visited Invercargill today after a freak snow storm caused the stadium’s roof to collapse under the weight of the dense snow on Saturday. He told NZPA that elderly locals had told him they hadn’t seen a snowfall like it in the city during their lifetimes and that roofs had also buckled or collapsed on several other buildings in the area. The snowfall was a “spectacularly unusual” weather event, he said. NZPA

        At the time the stadium was built in 2000, the building code for buildings of the stadium’s nature sitting at sea-level was 0.323 kilopascals and that it was in fact designed to withstand 0.400kPa. A pascal is a measure of force per unit area. However, there was evidence to suggest the weight of Saturday’s snow may have been at that extreme or greater.

        Read more

  24. Russell Garbutt

    James, there is nothing wrong with my figures that I can see – do you see something amiss with the following?

    The weight of water is 10kg per square metre per cm.

    To get to 90kg per sq metre you would need 9 cm of water, or let’s say about 25cm of wet snow. Are you saying that a fall of over 25cm of wet snow on a new roof complying with the new standards would exceed the structural integrity of such a new roof?

    The snow level on the Southland Stadium roof was quoted widely as 10cm.

    Let’s be generous and agree that the recent snowfall equated to 40% water content which is still higher than generally accepted in cold maritime conditions – this means that the weight on the roof was 40kg per sq metre, and I still say that this doesn’t seem a great deal of weight.

    What was the previous standard prior to the 90kg loading?

  25. James

    Hi Russell,
    I couldn’t find the old standard (not for lack of looking), but it is in the Stuff article linked by Elizabeth — 0.323kPA, with the stadium designed for 0.400 kPa. I would not say that Invercargill has particularly cold maritime conditions. The temperature was almost certainly above freezing, so you end up with wet snow compacting but not draining off, so very heavy snow — an issue identified by the NIWA report (who according to Williamson estimate a loading of 0.38-0.47, which exceeds the design).

    40kg per square metre does not seem like much. However, when you consider that perhaps the underlying trusses might be 5m apart, that means a 5 x 5m space would be supporting an additional 1000kg. Or at 7m apart, just under 2000kg.

    • Elizabeth

      ### Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:13
      Minister sent to investigate stadium collapse
      Building and Construction Minister Maurice Williamson has been sent to Southland by Prime Minister John Key on a fact finding mission into what caused Stadium Southland to collapse under tonnes of snow over the weekend.
      Read more + Video

  26. fugley

    “Book for the ‘Brook” ?!? “like hell” from someone who’s been working on stadium from day dot. that’s NOT something we would let happen full stop ! yes there are a number of things that could be said to be falling behind but trust me all stops would be pulled out to have this done in time or ALL our hard work would become worthless.

    PS: there are OTHER builds that need to be built to make the stadium 100% finished. just remember that the fourth wall of the stadium is the uni build just starting now

  27. Peter

    This was supposed to be a multi use stadium for at least the next fifty years and so it shouldn’t matter if it isn’t opened by RWC time. Of course we knew all along it was a rugby stadium geared up for the RWC in 2011. It makes no difference to many people when it’s finished. If it isn’t finished for the RWC, who cares? The desperation to finish it on time is for rugby’s honour alone.

  28. James

    That’s not entirely true, Peter. Worst case scenario would be that ratepayers foot the bill for the new stadium, AND an additional spend to tart up Carisbrook a bit for the RWC.

    • Elizabeth

      One of the options for Carisbrook is a community sports facility… some RWC work on it might help this… #justanoptionfolks

      Met a Hillside Engineering person today at the Mayoral Forum, 28 years a rugby player – said he will never set foot inside the Fubar. His outlook on other matters was as I would expect: forthright, intelligent, no nonsense, progressive and forward looking – with the senses of humour, irony and discernment. So how many others feel the same way?

      • Elizabeth

        ### ODT Online Wed, 22 Sep 2010
        Engineer sees code review
        New Zealand’s engineering system may have to be reviewed in the wake of last Saturday’s roof collapse at Invercargill’s Stadium Southland, a structural engineer says. Dr Charles Clifton, an associate professor at Auckland University, said a commission of inquiry might be needed, similar to one in Canada after the opening-day collapse of the Station Square shopping centre roof in Burnaby, British Columbia, in 1988. NZ Herald
        Read more


        ### ODT Online Wed, 22 Sep 2010
        Potential lessons for DCC
        By Chris Morris
        Dunedin City Council staff say lessons could be learned in Dunedin from the investigation into the collapse of Stadium Southland…Council development services manager Kevin Thompson said the collapse had not prompted checks of Dunedin’s box-shaped buildings, such as the Edgar Centre or Dunedin Ice Stadium.
        Read more

  29. ro

    Fugley says that all stops will be removed to ensure the stadium is completed on time. No doubt, the stops we’ve tried to put on the public purse will be the first to be opened. A pity we can’t suppose that the stop on private fund-raising was going to be withdrawn… but as Fugley said…

    “like hell” from someone who’s been working on stadium from day dot. That’s NOT something we would let happen full stop !

  30. Phil

    Maybe someone should tell Kevin about the existing problems with the roof structure in the Lion Foundation Arena at the Edgar Centre ?

    Since the time it was opened, the two long side concrete panel walls have been progressively tilting away from each other, making the distance between the tops of the walls greater than the span of the steel roof trusses. Every year new steel plates are added under the base of the roof trusses as the holding bolts get pulled further out of the concrete walls. It’s clearly visible from the walkway along the back of the retractable grandstands for anyone fancying a site visit. The obvious markers are the different lengths of bolts sticking through the plates, and the large gap between the bottom of the steel plate and the concrete wall at every roof truss. And the vertical cracks running down the concrete columns underneath the roof trusses.

    The effect of the tilting walls has had an effect on the retractable seating. One row of seating has already been removed to allow the seating to retract under the fixed (but now tilting) concrete walkway at the back.

    It is also creating a problem for the ducted ventilation system as the stretching of the roof trusses means that the height at the centre of the trusses keeps lowering. It’s not a huge amount, but the hanging positions of the ducts require adjusting every year. The same shape changing of the roof is stressing the concrete end panels, which are obviously not able to stretch. For now, the cracks are being filled with silicon as they appear.

    On a side note, it would be nice if the original contractor could finish their contract. I noticed the other week that the skirtings in the staircase leading up to the back of the grandstands is still waiting to be painted. It’s only been, what, about 8 years now ?

  31. David

    James says – “That’s not entirely true, Peter. Worst case scenario would be that ratepayers foot the bill for the new stadium, AND an additional spend to tart up Carisbrook a bit for the RWC.”

    At what point in time did Dunedin ratepayers agree to be major financial backers to Rugby World Cup Ltd.

  32. Calvin Oaten

    Phil; 8 years and contract not complete? That means the St Clair sea wall ramp has another couple of years to go before …..errr… nothing.

    David; The Dunedin Ratepayers didn’t agree to be financial backers to the Rugby World Cup Ltd. The trio Chin, Harland and Farry did.

  33. Peter

    James. The glee is only apparent! God forbid they tart up Carisbrook if the stadium isn’t finished. (For three pool games?) Imagine the uproar. Not that this seems to faze the pro stadium councillors. Whatever happens I don’t want ratepayers paying $400k plus a year for its upkeep.

  34. James

    David – I agree with Calvin in effect. Ratepayers via their elected representatives might agree to the tarting up of Carisbrook. Whether it happens or not (apart from whether the other stadium is finished), will depend on who we elect. I’m not suggesting it should happen, merely that it might, in which case Peter should have cause to revisit his apparent glee.

  35. kate

    Peter is that $400k plus a year to upkeep – or keep?

    {Upkeep is a noun. -Eds}

  36. Elizabeth

    ### 7:31PM Tuesday September 28, 2010
    New Southland Stadium on the way
    Source: ONE News
    There’s some welcome news for Southlanders amidst the gloom that’s swamped the region in the past week. Insurance has come through to rebuild the Southland Stadium, which crumpled under last week’s heavy snow.
    Read more

    • Elizabeth

      ### ODT Online Wed, 29 Sep 2010
      Stadium Southland claim accepted
      By Adrian Seconi
      Nothing lifts the spirits quite like a cheque for $25 million. Stadium Southland general manager Nigel Skelt was able to smile for the first time since heavy snowfall caused part of the venue’s roof to collapse earlier this month.
      Read more

      • Elizabeth

        ### Last updated 05:00 02/10/2010
        Stadium rebuild: better, not bigger
        By Sam McKnight – The Southland Times
        It is two weeks to the day since Stadium Southland fell, destroying the home of so many of the province’s sporting victories and cultural performances. While it was a disaster for the region in the short term, it has opened the door for a new take on what the stadium could be to Southlanders.
        Read more


        ### Last updated 05:00 02/10/2010
        What do you want in a new stadium?
        By Sam McKnight and Joseph Aldridge – The Southland Times
        September 2010 will forever be remembered as the month Stadium Southland fell over. Out of the ruins of the stadium, brought down by the worst snowfall in decades, will rise a glistening new arena come 2012, but how it will look is anyone’s guess. Ideally, the new stadium won’t topple over and its owners the Southland Indoor Leisure Centre Charitable Trust have committed to building version two, to rigorous standards. But the stadium’s general manager Nigel Skelt said since the stadium roof collapsed on September 18 he had been inundated with suggestions about what could be included in its replacement.
        Read more

  37. Anonymous

    My little bird (who is seldom wrong) says to ask why leaving a 1m strip around a property is sufficient to avoid a notified consent.

  38. Calvin Oaten

    Kate, the $400k plus a year is nothing to do with the upkeep (noun) but is simply to service the debt incurred in purchasing it. I thought all councillors would have known that.

  39. Anonymous

    A bullet was dodged at Anzac Ave this morning.

  40. Elizabeth

    There are three construction sites on Anzac Ave, beside the Leith. One is the stadium site, one is the university’s phase 1 building and the other is the Otago Polytechnic building. Where was the bullet fired and where did it (un)safely land? In the hands of DCC? Or? Tune in for more, folks.

  41. Russell Garbutt

    Kate, the $400k plus per year is definitely just debt servicing for the Council borrowing to purchase Carisbrook.

    This sorry tale of purchase is yet another clear reason why this current pro-rugby mob cannot be returned. Some people believe that the price the DCC paid was fair and reasonable – $7m. But it was widely broadcast that the purpose of the purchase was because the City needed to protect industrial land. So was $7m a good price to pay for a site that needs a lot of demolition before it can be used for the purpose intended?

    People in the business say no, and I agree with them.

    What is abundantly clear is that the price paid had everything to do with the amount of money that needed to be raised to buy out the ORFU debts. Now the ORFU don’t need Carisbrook after it is on standby for the RWC matches, so the burden of debt belongs to the new owner – us!!!

    Now of course Chin, and people like Walls are running round trying to make a virtue of asking us what they should do with it!!!! They needed to ask us BEFORE they bailed out the ORFU, not after. Not that it would have made any difference to what they did.

  42. kate

    The question was for clarity – I did know the answer – I just didn’t think the full annual cost had been explained and I was encouraging discussion – backfired sorry. The $400k is the lowest number.

    Are we talking real bullets or figuratively?

  43. Phil

    Regarding Anonymous’ question about the yardage requirements around property boundaries, a resource consent would be required if anything was constructed inside of the minimum yardage restriction. However, the consent could well have been a non-notified consent, if all affected parties were clearly identified. Yardage consents are usually non-notified consents because the only affected party is the adjoining neighbour, who’s consent would be needed as part of the application.

    As a side note, in the majority of European countries, ALL resource consent applications are publically notified. While this may look like more hassle at first, it actually speeds up the process long term, removing complaints and appeals by people who considered themselves to be affected. And removes criticism of councils who can be accused (heaven forbid) of showing bias by trying to push through consent applications as non-notified applications.

  44. Phil

    I think that you were asking about the annual maintenance costs for the stadium, Kate ? And not the operating costs. I would say, off the cuff, that your figure of $400k would be a good starting point. Especially if costs such as cleaning were included as maintenance items, rather than operational. I presume that an annual maintenance plan has been prepared and costed, as well as a long-term planned maintenance plan.

  45. kate

    Sorry people have taken my comment wrong.

    Peter talked about upgrading of Carisbrook for three RWC matches – and went onto talk about $400K upkeep.

    My question to him, was about the upkeep (Peter’s word) being $400k, as I am uncertain what the upkeep cost is, I am very aware of the $400K debt servicing. Actually, it is more than that as we have lost interest on the $2million that we were not repaid as well.

    There will be ongoing costs over and above debt servicing eg power, mowing, security if it is kept. I cannot recall that figure if in fact I have been told it. Hence my query of Peter – was the figure he meant to refer to debt servicing, or operational costs?

  46. Russell Garbutt

    Kate, the costs of things like mowing, maintenance of a rugby ground etc would be zero if the Council had not bought the ground in the first place. Ditto with the cost of the borrowing to purchase.

    If there was a genuine need for industrial land, I would have thought that by now the DCC would have the entire place on the market, with a sale date after the RWC when the “standby” period runs out.

    Problem will be that I think we will all find that the price people will be prepared to pay will be a great deal less than $7m and we couldn’t have that embarrassment around could we?

  47. kate

    Agree on first issue Russell, problem is that now DCC has purchased it, people feel that all avenues for its use should be explored. I have some sympathy with this thought in that it is as built, a resource – is it reusable as such and is there an economic way to reuse it? Some work has been done on this and it appears that potential reuse comes at a cost – quite substantial cost. Some of the ideas are very good, and if we had not got ourselves in the financial situation we have they might have been considered acceptable costs. In the current climate they are not. Do we add these as costs – opportunity costs – of the stadium?

    • Elizabeth

      It would help immensely if all Dunedin City councillors referred to actual documents by name and weblink to substantiate their statements. Otherwise, we will continue to be governed by bullswool artists.

  48. Anonymous

    The crane that was moved was tethered to the truss.

    If the idiot had engaged forward, the crane boom would have damaged the main cross-beam.
    If they hadn’t stopped where they did, there could have been serious damage to the cross-beam.

    Mr Farry wants to know how someone could get onsite and drive a crane? Easy, the site is not secured (incomplete fencing and easy to climb, no 24-hour monitoring) and the keys are left in.

    Budget for 24-hour security would obviously have been included in the GMP?

  49. Phil

    Nope, P&G was excluded in the $130 mill

    {*preliminary and general costs -Eds}

  50. Anonymous

    ” In reality, once the building is up and running, it is in the lap of the gods as to what size of storm he throws down, and it would be entirely wrong of us to predict with any sense of confidence that the building would of reacted substantially differently had there been twice as much snow. This is the question that keeps me up at night.”

  51. Peter

    At least David Davies is being honest and not coming up with the crap that Malcolm Farry espoused where ‘not even an act of God’ would destroy our – sorry, their – stadium.

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