Glory be: Employment = Rugby

### National Business Review Friday April 24 2009 – 03:55pm
Dunedin stadium will employ 500 for two years to be ready for RWC
By Robert Smith
If you can swing a hammer or operate heavy machinery you might be needed down south. With the last legal barrier kicked into touch, construction of Dunedin’s new $200 million stadium will begin in a matter of weeks, with more than 500 workers required for 2 years to get in done in time for the Rugby World Cup.
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Filed under Architecture, Design, Economics, Geography, Hot air, Media, Politics, Site, Stadiums, STS

28 responses to “Glory be: Employment = Rugby

  1. Elizabeth

    Tremain goes straight to Bev, money and fickleness… for tomorrow’s ODT. Link

    Garrick Tremain

  2. economicus111

    Hello all,

    When the govt borrows money, tax people or print money and create inflation for the purpose of economic growth only wealth dislocation and inflation occurs, also the impoverishment of the populace. The regressive system of govt, big business and sporting industries with mass media create more dislocations of wealth because taxing poeple and spending their money cannot create wealth and growth beyond what tha natural economy would achieve. The stadium cannot increase the productivity of Dunedin, only like the Wall St Mall, incrase spending and thereby incur ongoing costs. And as the projects of the govt and its big biz finishes the employees and construction works, so called created by the propaganda and misunderstoods, will end redundant facing more inflation and debt, and more recessions arising. Let the govt stick to basic public amenities and the private sector run their affairs. I oppose all forms of wealth dislocation to any areas outside welfare. Because I am just and I understand basic economics. Please stop the world govt from selling the nations to the big biz and international banks. Can we see why the price of houses, food, health, education goes above the rate of inflation and population growth. Don’t we know that this caused because the govt and big biz and banks print money and icrease the money supply, by increasing debt, and ending up taxing the people and the giving them inflation. Devaluing our pay cheques is not a nice thing to do and using it it all sorts of private biz is crazy, let alone a sporting venue. Keep doing this and the whole nation, all local farms and lands will be lost form our hands, to the bankers and govt cronies.

  3. economicus111

    basically and ideally, people will not get a negative return on saving money like what is happening today, and therefore will be able to save to build their houses or fix their bathrooms and build a second floor for the economy. Herein the real growth and propserity not when the DDC tax and borrow to build a stadium causing our houses to rot because most of the popolace are impoverished. The wealth dislocation must stop but people need to understand economics first.

  4. Thank you for the Libertarian 101 lesson, sorry if I yawn a little (actually a lot), but I am sick to my bone hearing this line trod out over and over time and time again.

    Sorry but the lesson is failing on many levels, firstly the DCC doe not engage in printing money, thus increasing the supply. It has engaged in borrowing (of which the merits could be debated from any angle, from Feminist Marxist through to Libertarian transhumanism), which is of course completely different.

    The price of international commodities has had a far greater impact on the price of grocery story produce than any local infrastructure plan.

    Tax, despite your obvious dogmatic objections to it, is a fact of life, and crying about it won’t achieve your economic nirvana any greater, surely you understand that the parameters of which you are defining economic growth and personal wealth growth are not achievable without a massive societal shift of imagination from Social Democratic to some sort of Paleolibertarianism, which thankfully most people with their heads out of their asses and text books don’t adhere to.

    Sorry to be so dismissive of your comments. I dear say that there are some middle eastern states which would agree with you re the tax situation, all the while pumping billions of dollars of the states wealth into massive construction projects built on the back of cheap migrant labour.

    If you wish to continue your fight against the world’s economic system, I suggest many of the tired boring right wing political blogs would welcome your comments with a mighty slap on the back and a round of “like he said”.

    We on the other hand are more concerned about the merits and or architectural/design achievements of this local construction project.

    Sorry, but simply there is no right or wrong definitive as you seem to claim “Because I am just “, to suggest so is arrogance beyond belief and smacks of not yet having had a decent argument with others outside of the rubbish economic Libertarian dogma which paraded as pragmatic thought.

    Good luck at Kiwiblog. If however you have something interesting to say about Stadium development in Dunedin which has any bearing in reality, we’d all love to hear it. Cheers

    BTW, how did you go predicting the global credit crunch? What didn’t see it coming, the rabid race for personal wealth clouded the warning signals, how strange.

  5. economicus111

    Ok sir, fair enough but I am not going to believe that using the money of half the city against what they agree with is fair, nor forcing them to borrow it from a national or international bank. and the DCC is not printing money but every nation is and the govt is helping build the stadium, so some of the cash will be out of a printing press as the govt is already in deficit, right. anyhow, what is more important here is the process of wealth disolcation into areas like malls and stadiums. Social Democratic is not to mean the govt is going to build a stadium to help emplyeemnt and growth because it cannot.. So please say you want it because you do what a big toy and don’t say it will increase employment or economic growth. The govt and all central planning and control is less productive than the freedoms of the private building blocks of society working and competing and building their lives. You cannot create resources or add more wealth by dislocating wealth and transferring it from households to stadiums.

  6. Sorry, but 600 new jobs created during the tenure of the construction process isn’t a bad return on the money, considering all economic and fiscal indicators show an improvement in employment and growth again within 18months.

    It isn’t wealth dislocation and repeated use of the term only suggests an adherence to an economic dogma with a very small vocabulary in the least.

  7. economicus111

    by the way, me and all sound economist predicted the global crisis, and the global crisis is caused by the wealth dislocation process carried the Fed Reserve and the IMF and WB.. Why do you think it is global?

    Because it is the direct consequence of central planning of the economy by the process of wealth dislocation, described above. and guess what, the situation will get worse as the global govts print more money and create more disolcations of wealth. lets wait and see..

  8. Elizabeth

    Allowing for the English problem, what a crap artist you are economicus111: “me and all sound economist predicted the global crisis”.
    You probably weren’t born when the signs were out there plainly for the rest of the world to grab, sir.
    Paul gave you a good working over tonight in one of his longer replies – that kind of puts you on notice.
    If you can’t understand a farmers’ market (the local) how the hell you gonna understand the global.
    Back to your business school classes for you.

  9. economicus111

    I am back to school in the chair relaxed and all.

    But, wait a second: a closed market with cronies is no real competition and increase productivity. See, I am out there doing business and working hard. I say that things are sweet and there are no capacity constrains is a lie. Come on, if John Key is right we are in a deep hole dug by labour but if we look a head we see big business bail outs by John Key and more spending. So my point is: free the system for every one to have an equal share, beak the monopolies and stop sticking your head in the sand.

    {Sunshine, you’re still at university, go pretend somewhere else}

  10. economicus111

    come on: The farmers market cannot increase Otago’s economic welfare unless it can be open to new businesses freely without unwarranted restriction. cronisim is not a good thing.

    I just state facts, and we need to accept the facts please.

    {this subject is closed; take it up with market management, or get a life}

  11. economicus111

    Ok, sure
    And our freedom and free open society will come back one day…


  12. Mate it’s very simple, everything is regulated, from the banking industry through to the stock market, there is simply no text book – head-up-your-arse idea of free markets.

    There are no fucking free markets, even the NYSE is highly regulated, with rules governing every last little detail. I understand the dogmatic nirvana which you describe, thankfully it will never be achieved, it exists in text books, more correctly brainwashing stage one economic text books.

    There has never been a free society, you can not yell fire in a theatre for the obvious reasons, but your so called freedom of the individual is usurped by this rule. Society sets limits and restrictions, even in so called tax free havens, individual freedoms are quashed possibly even to a greater extent that what we have in NZ.

    You say “unwarranted restriction” but that is your definition, and it may not necessarily be the correct definition. An opinion is not a fact, don’t confuse this, Jesus are your lecturers really teaching this shit these days?

    I would suggest use the time you have left at University wisely and take some papers which will challenge your world view, like a politics paper, or sociology paper, and at all costs avoid the party line right wing dogma papers, they are screwing with your head.

    As said before if you wish to argue this crap, head off to Kiwiblog (but of course you won’t get an argument), so head to the left wing TheStandard, they are good guys who don’t suffer fools and will happily rip your arguments to shreds – knock yourself out.

  13. economicus111

    We had freedom in short time of history mate, go and read about the USA constitution that states only Glod and Sliver can be legal tender. And we did not always have a UN or a Fed Reserve. {didn’t take long for the Libertarian beating bag to come out. When exactly was this freedom in the USA, between 4:30-4:35am on 17 March 1718?}

    Listen, I know of free markets, black market and the underground market. Subscribing to the “real life” is a job because humans go in cycles {no they don’t haven’t you learnt anything in Eco101, humans are irrational beings whom are not self maximising economic units. Holly crap it’s one of the basic tenants of economics, the irrationality of human beings, and no adherence to Libertarianism will change that} with and overall advancement trend. So progress is with compassion by allowing others equal play and competition {so you are contradicting yourself, under a free market there is no such thing as equal pay, you are open to the subjective calls of management and human emotion}. So don’t think it is all socialist or whatever you think the real world is. listen, you cannot create employment when you build a stadium with borrowed money in borrowed time. You just dislocating where the development is going to happen. Lean real life, what you think is the cause may not be and what you thing is helping you could be actually killing you. Please note that you cannot go outside the principles of science. {you are struggling here sunshine, economics isn’t a science, it’s a value based theory of money, nothing could be further from the idea of science than economics}

    Did not much of humanity live in a feudal system for centuries. It was bad and not warranted or justified. Much of what I am talking about today is the same. again not warranted or justified. and humans will progress. But I am only warning that we will see some more bad times first. Just take this as a possibility and relax. also please accept that dislocating wealth is not creating it

    {Paul here – Lindsay Perrigo and Ian Wishart would be so proud of you, go bother them.

    BTW, by your very definition Profit is dislocation of wealth, how can jobs be created from profit? Good luck with this at Bye!}

  14. economicus111

    Profit comes from production and increase efficiency {No Profit comes from a value of the product being greater than the sum parts, and while one of the biggest components of any industrial process is human labour, it relies upon Labour being of a sufficiently low value}. You should not make money by fraud or by robbing people assets, savings or freedoms. Ok, thanks and bye,

    {It is only fraud if the parties aren’t fully informed in the contract between the two, in this case a council and a ratepayer. The thing is by buying property, in the society in which we live, you are entering into a contract with the local authority, whether you like it or not, and that contract includes the payment of rates. You are not robbing someone who has entered into a contract, no matter how much one protests. You do realise that your arguments are only adhered to by complete nut jobs like Lindsay Perrigo don’t you? Paul}

    {What are you on? Suggest detox. That aside, another paper to take (at secondary school) is Remedial English – fit this in around your degree of higher non learning.
    – Elizabeth}

  15. economicus111

    You just cannot hold an argument, uneducated and confused. Enjoy the misinformed world you live in… And try to show some good manners. I hope you learn that discussions ought to be objective and with personal attacks and subjective ideas. You just cannot win the debate so you hit the fringes, good luck, ha

    {bye, ta!}

  16. David

    Pauls says “It isn’t wealth dislocation and repeated use of the term only suggests an adherence to an economic dogma with a very small vocabulary in the least.”

    You’re completely wrong here Paul. Even the financial analysis done for the CST recognises that a large part of the balance sheet for the stadium – both positive and negative – is simply relocation of money that would otherwise be spent elsewhere.

    The 80% local spend mentioned in the story above is completely fictitious. Analysts have suggested figures between 30-40% local spend. Of course the real figure is half this, because half of all the money spent on the stadium will go in interest to foreign owned banks. The construction and land costs are only half of what we are really paying.

    There will be a temporary benefit to the local economy – roughly half of that benefit felt from the Milton Hilton, then we will pay and pay and pay for the next twenty years for the capital, interest, and several million more every year for ongoing running costs.

    (unless by some miracle our white elephant really does transform into a golden goose and does what virtually every other stadium around the world fails to do – make money – but what sensible person would place a $200,000,000 flutter on such a risky and unlikely outcome – that at best is forecast to return just 1/1000th of the bet price – what a fantastic outcome – if we ignore interest, well get to a break even in the year 3009)

  17. David, I wasn’t arguing the specifics of the stadium, I was arguing the weak application of Libertarian dogma to our general societal function.

    This however does not make me wrong, it’s all again a matter of interpretation, which hat you are putting on. This is a value judgement. What we have is your interpretation of what the above statements mean, and then I have mine. How can you say that the 80% figure is fictions (without a lawyer on your back), because what you are doing is calling the guy liar, and that’s a very unsteady game to play.

    Which analysts, are these specifically on this project, or are you talking generalities, of which are completely useless? Then you are coming up with all manner of economic gymnastics, because you claim that 15-20% of the spend will be locally, and the rest is interest to foreign owned banks. Could you please illuminate us which large infrastructure build in this country is financed out of savings or capital investment, to use the ‘Overseas banks’ value statement is once again used to alarm. My bloody mortgage is going overseas, doesn’t make my house any less desirable to live in, or any less profitable for me.

    See, it’s all mirrors and daggers, I (and don’t take this wrong) tend to take your analysis of this construction project with a pinch of salt as you are bringing too many preconceptions and value positions to load on the data, because we only need to look at your statement “virtually every other stadium around the world fails to do – make money”, when quite simply this is wrong.

    I’ve heard these claims over and over, and Dr Rob Hamlin from the business school used the dubious example of Rogers Centre in Toronto to the concerned masses at the inaugural StS meeting (I know I was there taking notes). He claimed that it was a complete failure and that it was sold for $25m a fraction of the $500m it cost to construct. There were gasps of horror filling the room, I could almost hear the steaks being sharpened from the back of the room. Problem was that is where the woeful tale ended. Just as the O2 arena (the old Millennium Dome) example. Dr Hamlin failed to tell the frothing masses that these were actually very profitable and vibrant facilities. Sorry I don’t buy the argument put forward here, for every ‘struggling’ stadium, I could pull out examples of successful stadiums globally.

  18. David

    Paul, you say the 02 / Millennium Dome is a profitable and vibrant facility.

    Do you mean when it was getting 6 million visitors per year LESS than forecast? (half the forecast).

    Do you mean when it cost two billion dollars, went into liquidation, and was closed in 2002?

    Or do mean after it finally re-opened FIVE YEARS later, AFTER the first two billion of public funds was wiped out, and another nearly two billion dollars of private funding was pumped into it?

    What hope do we have for our stadium, with plummeting numbers to rugby games around the country, with wildly optimistic crowd forecasts, which in the unlikely event that they are actually reached, will only then give the stadium a 1/1000th return on capital? (sounds similar to above)

    When Auckland was looking at a waterfront stadium, an American expert whose sole job was studying the profitability of stadia world-wide, stated on a global basis well over 90% of stadia were money sinks and sucked in far more money from the local community than they ever gave back.

    If the 02 millennium stadium is your idea of success, then we’re doomed.

  19. economicus111

    I thought the topic was closed but I feel obligated to respond to what you added to my entries Mr. Paul.

    I will just say that it is a waste to build a stadium from retapayers money and than charge them to use it. This is double payment and an unjust action.

    When I bought my house in Dunedin I did not sign a contract saying the DDC can build whatever whenever non-public amenities and charge me twice. All what I agreed to is basic public amenities and helping the poor, not the private rugby industry or trust. Obviously cronyism is tying to say it is creating jobs and employment by wasting money. And what is more obvious is that this is not true. You cannot create jobs by take money from someone and spending it on a trust for a sporting business, Ok (this is my whole argument).

    Ha, as if we have no poor people or houses needing attention. Economics is a real science and economists make money because they know stuff and they are every where working and making a living but the masses are in the most still ignorant and have no idea why there is a recession and, soon, a depression is shaping up as long as we keep doing the same mistakes.

    anyhow, Please take it easy and accept the facts. If I build something in my backyard will I be paying myself to use it? why are we accepting double payment for the stadium?? why cannot you just ssay I want it because I love rugby but i agree it is not an economic project that will create jobs and wealth. Just state the truth and move on.

  20. economicus111

    {you are struggling here sunshine, economics isn’t a science, it’s a value based theory of money, nothing could be further from the idea of science than economics}

    Economic is a science {NO IT’S NOT}, psychology is also a science. Money today is a method of feudal control {NO IT’S NOT}.

    Ok, it is all very simple. There is a flaw in the system. The flaw is human error (greed, robbery, opperssion and abuse on a mass (global) scale).

    The flaw is the idea (coming form the govt officials and its economists and the economists of the banks) to control the money supply outside the principles of freedom {Who’s freedoms, you can not have absolute freedom as mine might and possibly will surpress yours}, sound economics and logic, not to mention history, religion or democracy . So lets define money and money supply.

    Money is a unit of measurement (unit of exchnage). Thus it is like time. Time is money {OMG, the sky is blue, so is water, please don’t tell me the sky is made of water?}. You work and earn your pay cheque and you save it to buy stuff in the future or you become a capital entrepreneur so you invest it. You may make a profit or a loss depending on many factors. but the money is still in the system in circulation. Economists, all of them, agree that for something to be money convertablity and stable value (store value) are important requirements.

    But when someone print lots of paper money, wealth dislocation and the business cycle arise because of the inflationary process. Recession and depressions are the outcome of excess printing of money, borrowing and malinvestment. The only sloution to high house prices and reduced growth is to end the wealth disolcation inflationary process {no it’s not. I have built a house because I want to live in one, but also to make money. Simple supply and demand pressure dictate the price – an undersupply of product in relation to demand will dictate the rising cost of a commodity, not mythical misconceptions of fiscal policy. Give it up mate you are really really struggling with simple concepts here}. because, you cannot have growth by printing paper money {nobody has ever said you can, what’s your point}. You can only consume ink at a net loss (cost) when you increase the money supply of a nation. Stable money, denationalized and metalic money where printing cannot occur, will give a backbone for a very diverse and strong economy {What a complete load of fucking bollox! This only leads to Massive multi-national conglomerates like BHP Billiton controlling global currency with monopolised mineral extraction. If they want to make more money, they extract more metalic money, there could be nothing LESS democratic and LESS free than if I thought about it for a thousand years}. Diversity cannot arise under the current system of affairs where goverments and banks decide the money supply, and carry price fixing by a universal interest rate, and centrally control of the entire economy. {Jesus mate you really have bought the Libertarian line hook line and sinker. Look around you, UNDEMOCRATIC decentralised business with little or no governmental control is one of the leading causes of the current economic crisis, not banks and governments. If you can not acknowledge this, you have little or no hope of completing whatever course of study you are embarking upon. Only the profoundly stupid likes of Ian Wishart believe such shit, the reality is of course vastly different.}

    So take this as a question to answer: how much paper money did NZ, the Uk and the US created to cause the recession and the soon coming depression?

    {And the answer is, no the printing of ‘extra’ money by central banks did not cause the current economic credit and fiscal debacle. A systemic failure of big business was. Hang on aren’t these the same free business you are so pinning the economic nirvana (the rest of the world labels hell) on? General Motors is a failed business model, Fannie May and Freddie Mac were failed business models, as was City Group and all of the other failed businesses, the very simple problem is there was too little government control, and runaway management hell bent on failed models, unable to see a course to disaster was the root of the problem. But the funniest irony of all of this is the simple fact that laissez-faire policies (so dogmatically adored by the loony Libertarians) are not the those which will bring about economic recovery, the very centralised and somewhat social democratic theories of Keynesian economics are acknowledged as the saviour of the current economic woes, hell that must hurt. Once again the failure of Libertarian Dogma to adapt to the real world and actual issues is at the heart of why it will always be seen as a fringe political ideology and not a viable option for the HUMAN RACE

    Last warning, keep to the stadium, not your incoherent issues with the socio-political system, or a simple deletion of comments will be enforced. Once again, go and shout your rubbish at, they are wonderful leftist and don’t suffer fools, all manner of fun people will happily debate this crap till the cows come home.}

  21. economicus111

    If the stadium was a profitable business that can create wealth the NZX {NO it wouldn’t} and the private corporate world would be interested to build it {see below}, or to say the least, share issues can rise the money for it {No this wasn’t the model for capital investment taken}. But you cannot make a wasteful activity sound economic growth no matter what you say. And the end is always poor houses, families and impoverishment caused by the process of wealth dislocation that we all must fight as soon as we can before it is too late.

    {The model for stadia construction world wide is on the whole based upon public investment, as private money doesn’t fit the model needed to see it through. A stadium is not wasteful, saying so doesn’t make it so. Stadiums are not responsible for the poverty cycle, and weak Libertarian dogma is not the answer to it.}

  22. economicus111

    and in conclusion The glory is Rugby = impoverishment via the process of wealth disolcation.

    {SHUT UP already, there is no bloody wealth dislocation. What an impoverished argument. This is a public warning, come up with something related to the stadium, based on reality and not your pathetic Libertarian dogmatic approach to the world’s economic system, or as I said in the email to you, your comments will be deleted. We are more than happy to debate the stadium, this is not. The nirvana so sought by your world view is unattainable and quite frankly full of shit. It’s a real bastard when bloody humans get in the way of what a Libertarian text book prescribes, and that is the failure of your goal there, people are IRRATIONAL BEINGS, it’s bloody eco101 stuff, and irrational beings don’t behave in self maximising behaviour as prescribed in your little book of Libertarian drivel. Sorry about that.}

  23. Yes David I am talking about the very profitable and wonderful O2 arena. It is all too easy to tell half the story, the doom and the gloom, but there is no denial that it is now amongst the most profitable entertainment enterprise anywhere. Regardless of the sorrowful story of how it got there (a sad tale of incompetent architectural realisation of a vision, and an even more incompetent events management team), and no it’s not a failure.

    This is my only concern about this stadium, that the events management team is a rational and realistic body, one which looks at what models are working (including Vector in Auk). It will be the events management team which will make this a profitable venture, I have no doubt about that.

    Ah the failed Waterfront stadium, that was one hell of a shame, not helped by the dubious claims of said so called US ‘expert’ and others. You see Dr Hamlin of the University of Otago was paraded by the StS as an expert (who were the crowded masses to disagree, this man was a lecturer, they were Joe the Plumbers), shame that most of his comments were half truths and/or simply wrong. He claimed Twickenham was single use – it isn’t. He claimed Rogers and O2 were massive failures – they aren’t. He claimed that there will be only 20,000 capacity at the new Carisbrook, it won’t be. Experts can and are often wrong. After all I would also like to know which ‘expert’ you are talking about, because I have never heard the 90% claim before (mind you, you were the very first person to come up with the 3009 repayment claim). I would doubt very much if this figure was correct. A little backing up these claims would be helpful.

    However regardless, this doesn’t change the fact that over $2.5Trillion USD worth of stadium and entertainment facilities have been built by HOK Sport over the last decade. There must be some money in it, or these structures simply wouldn’t be built. Or there’s the other argument (one which I adhere to), that stadia and the like entertainment facilities are regarded as modern infrastructures, part of the social, cultural and economic fabric of society, and sometimes just sometimes these things cost a society to build and run, but then they are for the greater good of the people.

    The Stadium NZ on the Waterfront was going to be a wonderful wonderful building and asset for not only the city but country. It was media hysteria (hmm Bacon Flu anyone) and weak spineless political figures which failed to see it through. What does Auk have now, a several hundred million dollar upgrade of a (more or less Rugby only) SUBURBAN stadium, with poor transport to, sod all parking, and no plans to alleviate either. The upgrade of Eden park is a failure on so many levels it’s embarrassing. And the waterfront in Auk is still locked to the public.

    Yes David, the CURRENT model for event management as demonstrated by Rogers Centre and the O2 arena is what I expect in the very least from our building, and no what you say isn’t correct, we are not doomed. Are we not intelligent human beings with the ability to look and learn. If we can’t look at what was wrong with the O2 Arena and Rogers Centre and not see what they are doing now, then we might fail, but if we don’t learn from their mistakes, Vector’s successes, we are in trouble.

  24. economicus111

    I feel sorry for you Mr. Paul.

    Listen, you believe your masters and cannot think for a second that things can be improved. Supply and demand don’t cause house prices to double when population growth is less than 3% or negative. AND PRICE WILL KEEP RISING ABOVE POPULATION GROWTH BECAUSE OF THE WEALTH DISLOCATION PROCESS TO THE INTERANTIONAL BANKS AND THEIR CRONY CORPORATES. The inflation is behind the increase in prices… Please man, see the facts:
    The US fed reserve created the sub-prime, where else did the money given to borrowers come from. Ok, so interest rates are zero-0.25% in the US today, and were low for almost a decade. This means banks in the US can get money cheaply and loan it to people. So the Fed Reserve (cental bank) allow other banks (their bailout cronies) to gamble with other poeples’ money. I say this because the purchasing power of the loans is a consequence of devaluing the purchasing power of everyones money.

    Have a look at the graphics

    Note that Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are create by the Fed Reserve to give people money from the Fed’s printer. This is all about greed and control man because they should not be given people what they do not own. Savings give negative return because of this bad system. and printing is not like mining my freind and we know inflation is contained with God and Silver. Mining create jobs and means more iron and materials will be available for building and only precious metals will be used as money man.

    Listen, printing money is the reason for the recessions and depressions and rise in prices. Inflation is the increase in the money supply artificially.

    Ok, I real hope we can have a rational discussion because this is very important.

  25. Nah, you see my freedoms are about to squash yours (it’s a free world isn’t it), and I’m exercising my freedom to halt debate. This isn’t important, what is important here is the discussion of Stadium economics and politics, not your struggle with economics. Sod off to which is the appropriate forum for demented and unfounded ideas to be beaten down.