Live from the March – Update 1.2.09

{Update 1.2.09- DCC Debt Table c/- R Walls}

Bit of a long winded way of doing things, but I’ll be posting asap (if anything happens) and blogging soon.

Lets see if this will be the biggest thing in Dunedin ever. Apparently 80% are against it, lets see.

At march. Reasonable turn out possibly 1500-2000 but hardly the biggest thing to hit the city.

Auditor General is useless apparently? Bev is so wise.

Phase 1 stop direct debit
Delay rates at 10% penalty.

Fucking poll tax in thatcher’s britain, what that has to do with anything? 80% of the country wanted to keep homosexuality illegal.

She’s getting a head of steam up now.

Prof Harris lied again re MSL rise. Once again 1m rise is not fact

Lee Vanderviss settling in for the long haul.

Selling seats isn’t raising private money. Repeating 300m price myth

Actually biggest lies and bullshit coming from him, most dissapointing. Aparently talking in slow dulcet tones adds weight to his rubbish.

News flash CST is a joke? Apparently won’t be built by 2011

Dave witherow. This is going to be funny.

Callled it an abortion, councilors are shit scared? Councilors are brain dead. The good stuff is coming now.

Cost has gone from $5m to $20-30 in 2006. This guy is a twat. When you are quoting Rodney Hide you are desperate.

Calling Chin a moron. Selling assets to trust power for $1??? Is this right.

Wrong, democracy is every 3 years

Heckler! And cop car arrived with lights within seconds.

Jesus he’s repreting all of the lies. Taking the piss out of papal visit. He’s even talked to the popes representative! On and on about single use.

Biggest cheer is for saving carisbrook, now there’s no surprise.

Horse shit and hijack, this man is good (not)

Shareholders are leaving Forsyth Barr in droves.

You said it sunshine, anyone can be fooled.

All done what a fizzer. Seriously a good turn out bit if that was the single biggest isssue to hit the city ever. What a joke.


At home. Sorry the poor grammatical and linguistic effort, tapping away on my iPhone (although brilliant) is still a little slow when trying to keep up.

You are probably right, it was more like 1000-1500 tops, roughly the same as the previous march I attended. Funny, a good friend of mine, Anti Stadium, stuck a sticker on my back without me knowing. So I was able to mooch about the place taking pics left right and centre.

Pro Stadium very much in the minority (I counted 10), but this wasn’t their protest. I seemed to disappoint some of my friends when I heckled the speakers.

Seriously if anyone knows Prof Harris personally, please have a word to her to stop repeating the global warming line. Apart from being inaccurate, I overheard so many people talking about what a load of rubbish it was. So thankfully some of the misinformation has been dissected as rubbish, that heartened me a lot.

I’ll repeat it again for the sake of being boring, if you think that the financial burden to the city will be too much, that is your opinion and completely legitimate.

A couple of the mums there were being very nice, but kept asking me if I thought it through, am I a ratepayer etc. Nice to know I can fool some into thinking I am young and irresponsible.

Dear old Sid didn’t bother me as much as he has in the past. Genuine concern, if not misguided.

As I said Prof Harris again really needs to stay Schtum, there is a lifetime of brilliant work being publicly whittled away. I mean it’s been a few weeks now since the public hearings and I still can’t find any published material to support her figures – and I have tried.

Bev, less froth than I imagined, still angry, but really if that was it, phew. Didn’t like me suggesting that her rates revolt was illegal. As far as I understand and inc society can not advocate illegal action. It WILL hurt those who supposedly can’t afford it. If you break an AP, the bank charges you, if you set another one up, they charge you. If you don’t pay your rates without fair reason you get a bad credit rating. If that bad credit rating hinders any future chance for applying for credit, you really have shot yourself in the foot.

And after you have obtained bad credit and not paid your rates or paid them late, she will let you know what the next stage of protest will be. Translated, it’s going to be so illegal we better not mention it now, or I have no bloody idea, but trust me? Either is a little scary.

Bev this is not even remotely similar to Thatchers Poll tax issue, don’t puff your chest about that one.

Very very disappointed by Lee Vandervis, repeated much of the misinformation. You can’t have it both ways Lee. Selling seats and corporate boxes IS private money. This quite disingenuously is how stadia worldwide collect revenue. They are not your seats, they are seats to be sold.

Wow facts and figures re commodities sky rocketing etc all over the place and unfortunately I didn’t have fast enough fingers to check them, or jot down what was being said. I can rest assure than many of the costs have come down. It is not going to be a $300m stadium. The $188m is 2011 money, talk of changing foundations and altering design as a pointer to extra costs is just devious. This is all part of the design and construct process. But any intelligent person without a barrow to push would know that.

Witherow was massively boring. Seems calling people names legitimises claims?

ODT estimates 1300, Police estimate 1000 – somewhere around there was about right, but once again, if it was anything like Thatchers Poll tax or the single biggest thing to hit Dunedin, they are probably about 6-8000 people off having any real teeth. Sure people don’t march, they had work etc, but that could easily be explained away as margin of error crowd.

Update: In relation to Bev claiming that DCC debt was hundreds of millions of dollars and about to balloon out of control, I have been sent this table by Cr Richard Walls.

Nothing like facts to get in the way of a good crowd frenzy lie/misinterpretation.

DCC Debt

Some pics.


Bev was proud as punch, which I think is what the short grey haired woman on the left was on, boy was she angry and frothing at a poor dissenter.


The usual suspects, although apart from Bev, Sid and Josslyn I have no idea who they are.


There was a clown or court jester or something? Is this Damien?


If not misguided, at least this lot isn’t apathetic, unlike the thousands of others who should have been there. There were people concerned about the poo, others concerned about council services, and the biggest cheer of the day went to whoever it was suggested that Rugby at a preserved Carisbrook is the best option (House of Pain die-hards).


A little mean – tumble weed anyone? The man closest in white shirt didn’t appreciate any dissent at all. Witherow is a little angry eh?

Finally, thanks to Skyscraper City for the following image from the Octagon web cam during the march. You can see the seething masses through the leaves. Beautiful spot, look at all of those awful people unfriendly cars though, but that’s for another blog coming soon eh!



Filed under Hot air, Media, Politics, STS

25 responses to “Live from the March – Update 1.2.09

  1. Elizabeth

    It’s as bad as I imagined – all the has-beens and stuck records lined up for speeches… thanks for roving reporting Paul.

  2. drew

    1500 – 2000 would be a considerable over estimate of the crowd for sure, I wouldnt have given it even close to 1000 tops. The usual minority mouthpieces wheezing their tired old lines and shuffling up the street trying to hold back any progress – not just the stadium

  3. uglybob

    Enjoyed the coverage. Octagon webcam coverage supplemented!

  4. Richard

    “Selling (council) ASSETS to Trustpower for $1??? Is this right?”


  5. Karetai

    In November, 2004, our mayor, Mr Chin, signed a lease permitting the electricity company, Trustpower, to construct a hydro scheme on council-owned land in the tussock hills near Mahinerangi. This complex consisted of an artificial lake, some 30 hectares in area, together with two generating stations and the waterways interconnecting them. The excavation of the lake alone cost more than $20 million, with other associated large expenditures remaining unknown.

    Mr Chin signed this lease, not only allowing Trustpower to build the scheme, but to operate it for 999 years – for a rental, payable to the DCC, of one dollar per year. (By way of comparison, Trustpower will pay farmers up to $20,000 per annum for the placement of a single wind turbine in the same locality).

    There was a bit of an uproar when this got out, especially since most of the DCC councillors knew nothing about it. And the situation was not improved when Mr Chin attempted to excuse himself by explaining that he hadn’t read the documents “thoroughly”, before signing them. But he had signed them, and that was that – because attempting to remedy the blunder, according to Cr Guest, might result in litigation (and the majority of councillors were far too scared for that). So the city was deprived of millions in potential income over the life of this hydro-scheme, because our mayor was asleep at the wheel.

  6. Richard

    Oh that! Hardly “the sale of an asset”!! ‘Karetai” overlooks that the terms of the agreement which had been entered into by a departmental manager were subsequently renegotiated. The main benefit was the extra water storage made available to council at no cost.

    The agreement should have gone before a committee for approval as it was arguably outside the delegated authority of the manager.

    In any case, the signature of the council is the official seal. The procedure for its affixing and witnessing by two elected members was subsequently tightened up.

    Whatever, it is inaccurate to claim THAT A COUNCIL ASSET WAS SOLD FOR $1.

    End of story!

  7. Richard

    … and that “the city was deprived of millions in potential income over the life of this hydro-scheme!

    Pure fantasy!

  8. Biggest gaff of the day was scored by Vanderviss (and that’s saying something), called Malcolm Faggot, whops Farry. I do dearly hope it was a Freudian slip and not deliberate.

    But how much vitriol is there towards Farry. These people do genuinely think that Farry turns up to the CST each day thinking how can I screw the council and eat his lunch. I really do think they don’t know about the dozens of professionals that have worked on this project, or it’s much simpler to pick a baddie to focus on.

  9. Karetai

    January 31, 2009 at 1:14 pm
    It’s as bad as I imagined – all the has-beens and stuck records lined up for speeches… thanks for roving reporting Paul

    You once counted some of these “has beens and stuck records” as you now call them,your friends.
    You stood with them on the exact same march in July last year.
    There is no need for me to add further words.

  10. Elizabeth

    I’m talking about the speech makers – my English not acute enough above.

  11. Elizabeth

    Except for one – Prof Harris is certainly not a has been. But I don’t support her claims on the extent of sea level rise.

  12. And yes in Elizabeth’s defence Karetai, if you too had been treated by the StS as she had been, you’d be a little bitter about the lot of them too.

    Remember this woman and Peter E and other very intelligent people are actually on the side of those opposing the stadium, but you wouldn’t know it the way you and others are treating them. Simply because there are good arguments against the thing. But while the stupid and insane screams loudest and thus dictates debate, reason will never prevail.

    I mean today, what the hell was Prof Harris doing equating the heatwave in Australia to Global Warming. Heatwaves can not under any science be directly attributed to Global Warming, and I’m a card carrying believer in Global Warming and all of it’s ills. While there is that and the vulgar name calling of Witherow there is no sensible debate.

    Elizabeth with her vast wealth of knowledge of planning had a greater chance of influencing the decision than an angry mob and a rates revolt ever has. And you guys with those disgusting abusive and offensive emails etc have well and truly shot yourselves in the foot over this one.

    Stuck record was a very very good description. There was the same rubbish repeated over and over, there wasn’t anything new. If E Kerr had been there, there would have at least been some reporting back of what avenues of redress are available etc, within the law. Considering there had been planning meetings etc, a lot has happened recently.

    Oh no, we got, “The Auditor General is a joke and incompetent”, oh how very intelligent, how very constructive.

  13. Elizabeth

    While I’m at it. So Bev Butler and Dave Witherow are to be considered responsible community leaders. What was that in Bev’s email to StS members on 29 January?

    [Bev/Dave] “Our prospective Rates Revolt has generated quite a stir, with one or two news reporters querying whether such a tactic is legal, or even moral!

    Our response is that we shall behave, as always, responsibly, and that such queries may be more properly directed to the petrified councillors of the Dunedin and Regional Councils.”

    Anyone advocating a “rates revolt” has never been my friend. And I’m bemused, today on a number of casual pro-stadium posters have been allowed to air. Is Bev reforming suddenly, relaxing the ‘media’ ban.

  14. Karetai

    What did you say to Paul when he said Jocelyn Harris was a liar?
    And what have I ever said or done to you that has upset you ?
    I’m being accused of treating Peter Entwisle unkindly too when I have never mentioned his name.

  15. Elizabeth

    Checked my DVD of TV1 news: that was Dave Witherow hammer and nailing damage into the Category 1 Municipal Chambers door. I say, Richard???

  16. Karetai

    The difference between Peter and you Elizabeth is that he is still against the stadium but because of your bitterness you know longer know where you are.
    I have nothing further to say to you or to your new ‘mates’ apart from this….stop spreading STS members names to malicious people on malicious websites.

  17. Karetai

    Should have been no not know

  18. Elizabeth

    Karetai, I don’t recall you’ve ever been unkind to Peter Entwisle.

    Paul’s ability to uncover let’s call them untruths, exaggerations, fallacies and fictions (etc), his LIE detector tendencies, is energetically playing out.

    Well he may. Some claims by bloggers, campaigners for and against the stadium, and, it appears, by StS in the Octagon today have been less than ‘on the nail’. Slippage happens. The intentions behind that are where the questions start.

    I’m surprised Emeritus Professor Jocelyn Harris turned up to speak today. She doesn’t want the stadium, good on her, but flooding aside I’m even more surprised that she is (allegedly) connecting the Australian heatwave with global warming.

    Rule of thumb: your ‘professed’ expertise (drilled in during our Professional Practice papers at Architecture School) has to be sharply reduced to “what you actually know and what you can truthfully, factually defend”. Know your gaps.

    An architect is not an engineer – unless they’re duly recognised and accredited with professional expertise in both (and somewhere in there, to complicate matters, the boundaries between the disciplinary fields of knowledge may, for example, have properly institutionally subsided, merged or been moved aside).

    A person of the humanities isn’t a recognised and accredited climate scientist too, not suddenly automatically – not due to their readings, research, exposure or contacts. To be authoritative in both they would have to be tested across their practice and theory – conservatively, by their ‘recognised’ peers.

    In my case I can’t claim to be an urban designer, an architect, a resource management planner. My training is in architecture but my work has been fully multidisciplinary and I’ve reached the stage where no label properly applies, which is to say I’m a generalist (I think).

    In general, Karetai, you have done nothing to upset me. I’m glad you’re pushing the debate along particularly where spending priorities, ability to pay (OR NOT, the issue), and problematic decision making by the powers-that-be are concerned. Keep it up.

  19. Karetai

    It’s sad that this stadium has turned neighbour against neighbour and I can’t help but think that Malcolm Farry has been the cause of it.
    He was asked to do a job but somewhere along the way this stadium became more personal to him than just a job.I’ve heard the words said that he became like a cheer leader but I think it’s even more than that.
    This stadium is his baby.He wants to burp it and help it get through it’s teething problems.When it hickups he wants to help bring up its wind.He wants to feed it from your rates. But when it fails to reach its expectations,he’s going to place it in the hands of caregivers and he’s going to be nowhere to be seen.

  20. Richard

    Hickups? Interesting new word. Or do you mean HICCUPS, Karetai?

  21. “It’s sad that this stadium has turned neighbour against neighbour ”

    What is sad is people can let this happen. I attended the march today, knowing full well that I would be in the minority. I was surprised with some of my friends marching, but good on them. I went up said gidday, gave them a hug etc, all very cordial. One bugger slapped a StS sticker on my back, had that there for ages till another anti stadium friend pointed it out.

    Malcolm Farry hasn’t let neighbour come up against neighbour, it’s the people themselves that have done that. I’ll continue to call those people opposing the stadium my friends, and considering they invited my wife, kids and I for dinner Sunday night, I’m guessing they still call us friends.

    It’s very sad that neighbours can let that happen to each other. I mean we aren’t talking actual ‘moral’ dilemmas as Bev keeps pushing it. It’s not the Poll tax, it’s not the Homosexual Law Reform, it’s not even fighting Apartheid. It’s not destroying a river valley for a Dam, it’s not exporting weapons, it’s a bloody sports and entertainment centre, which if it works will be a wonderful asset to the city, to go along with all of the other wonderful assets this city has. If neighbours are going to let this get between them, then I suggest there was something there already.

    The greatest misconception out of all though is that this is his baby, what do you lot call it, Farry’s Folly? As with all protest movements it’s easy to look for a figure head and Farry of course being the public figure is it. But it’s not his project and until the people figure that out for themselves that’s their problem.

  22. For those who weren’t there today, one of the more bizarre and biggest cheers went for the new poster boy for the anti-stadium lot, Hayden Meikle. Seems to have won the people over with that piece, cynically he suggests that more ODT’s will be sold in the coming weeks?

  23. Elizabeth

    With his opinion piece, his journalistic position, Hayden offered something, er ‘fresh’, for people to mull, I suppose.

    I can’t see where the viability of the new (named) Otago Stadium is printed. I’m having great difficulty with this absence, frankly.

    I can’t see where the viability of Carisbrook same or upgraded is – not if rugby is to be the mainstay, with what other events on what regular basis. Too many questions there, Hayden, best you research the answers and sell more papers to convince the number crunchers.

    Paul, to cheer you up, I seriously doubt StS management committee will become a political force for the next local body elections. I mean, look at it, hello anyone home.

  24. Richard

    “I can’t see where the viability of Carisbrook same or upgraded is – not if rugby is to be the mainstay, with what other events on what regular basis. – Elizabeth”.

    There have been a number of options proposed for upgrading Carisbrook. From the relatively modest one recommended by the original Working Party chaired by DCC CEO Jim Harland to those detailed in the report of the CST.

    The option that Hayden Meikle envisages in his recent ODT opinion piece of the DCC acquiring and upgrading the ground etc, would end up with the DCC carrying about the same level of debt and the same rating requirement as for Awatea. Maybe more.

    For the reasons referred to by Elizabeth i.e. its likely use, this would almost certainly be added to by the requirement for on- going support from rate funding to make up the shortfall between operating revenue and expenditure in much the same way e.g. as the Edgar Centre, Dunedin Centre etc. etc.

    Whether one agrees with Hayden or not, I thought his piece was timely and objective as it gives me the opportunity to flick the pages back a bit and have a smile or two.

    I reserve the biggest for those who vociferously opposed the Harland recommendation (much in the same way as Malcolm Farry is being attacked now) and now oppose the Awatea Street proposal but who do not see (or admit) to the irony that it sprung from THEIR undermining of the Harland WP proposal and sledging of the ORFU!

    And now, they are in favour of acquiring and upgrading Carisbrook! All this is my bulging files, clippings, emails and, of course, that ‘wee computer’ in my head.


    PS; I think it highly appropriate that Hayden Meikle as ODT Sports Editor, comment/report on ‘a bloodsport’ !

  25. Richard

    A busy week for Sports Editors! First Hayden Meikle in the ODT, now Richard Boock (formerly of Dunedin) weighs in in today’s Sunday Star Times.

    Oh well, as I said its “a bloodsport”!!!

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