Breaking News: StS to break the law

In an email to the StS members today, Bev Butler has suggested

“In a responsive, honest democracy, the stadium would be dead long ago. For the council to continue, against an eighty percent opposition, demonstrates an incomprehensible arrogance that must soon push people into more radical modes of opposition. A rates revolt has been suggested, and Stop The Stadium intends to organise this in the near future, if reason does not prevail.”

As stated by Vilder over at Skyscraper City “As with any person or organisation, an incorporated society must comply with the laws of New Zealand. This includes not undertaking criminal activities, meeting any tax obligations and complying with any government agency requirements that may apply to the society’s activites.”

Bev, you live in a democracy, not a citizens initiated referendacy (if that is an allowable term). If and once again if this campaign had been on reasoned information and not half of the rubbish that has come from you personally then I might have almost agreed. But the simple fact of the matter is that this campaign has been based upon lies (almost too many to mention once again), misinformation and of course disinformation. That is no way to conduct a public discussion, and one that is so important to this city.

If we are to believe that might is right, with 80% of the population and some 800,000+ signatures (including Mickey Mouse’s) against the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, the decent 10% gay population of this country would still be institutionally discriminated against.

By all means break the law. I have an issue with the city issuing parking tickets (never had one myself but they are evil right?), can I please withhold my rates. Lets see how long this so called support you have remains. And you thought Elizabeth Kerr and Pete Entwistle were mad for suggesting legal and proper avenues of recourse. It’s easy to see that you have probably had a plan of some sort of irrational civil disobedience all along, if we can be that generous with any suggestion of fore thinking with you.

I agree if there had been ‘reasoned’ debate then we would be in a different situation. You are proving that there is nothing reasoned in your world.



Filed under Economics, Hot air, Media, Politics, STS

82 responses to “Breaking News: StS to break the law

  1. Elizabeth

    A couple of StS members I don’t know very well sent me copy of Bev Butler’s email tonight, so can confirm the citation… Vilder’s (??) onto something with the legal issue.

    Historically, there had been some posts to the StS website wanting a “rates strike” (NB. the descriptor has moved up a notch to “revolt”) – at the time I made an effort to reply that as an incorporated society StS could not be seen to do anything illegal.

    And now here’s Bev putting it out as an idea. Not surprising in some ways, since StS recently posted a link on their website about the threat of a possible rates strike to prevent a stadium being built at Whangarei. Here’s the direct link:

    StS, original too.

  2. Elizabeth, thanks for that. You seem to be as much as a night owl as me.

    Sad really. As left as I am, I have never been a fan of citizens initiated referenda, as more often than not history has proven that might is not always right or reasoned. It’s a very unproductive way for a city or country to operate, and one could suggest a very dangerous way to live in a society.

  3. Elizabeth

    The city goes silent at night – apart from the rescue chopper (thank god we have it) going in and out a couple of blocks away, having had masses of business this whole summer – it helps the text editing tasks stacked up here to use that silence well…and, of course, always time for a little online distraction and checking of populated and news websites.

    You have to laugh at StS. What else can you do.

    Not into citizens initiated referenda, to me they’re a blunt instrument.

  4. Very quiet here on the peninsula too, still got the door wide open and loving this weather. Ditto, nice time to get work done, I’m one of these modern dads who is primary caregiver (ick of a term), and I work in the evenings. Best time of the day.

    CIR’s actually scare me, as public opinion is fickle, and mass hysteria is a rapid phenomena. That aside, I know many councillors are looking at those figures and a little stressed about the coming decision and the future of their position in council. Ah the price to pay for becoming a public figure eh?

    Actually could you answer a question for me. The survey that went out, did it go to random residents or just ratepayers?dd

  5. Elizabeth

    Paul, the survey went out on this basis:

    From the Stadium Survey Report:

    “2.3 Sampling Frame

    We used the mailing addresses held by NZ Post, known as the PAF (Postal Addresses File). This list contains addresses only, and no names. Hence the survey was addressed to \The Residents” at each address.

    In the cover letter (see Appendix B on page 18) we asked for the person in the household who was aged 18 or over and had most recently had a birthday to ll out the questionnaire.

    Although it is highly desirable to personally address mail-out self-completion questionnaire
    surveys there is no demographically representative mailing list available.

    Commonly used mailing lists that include names as well as addresses are biased in the sense that they are sourced from people who have shifted house recently (e.g. the NZ Post New Movers list) or from home ownership (LINZ) records.”

  6. Elizabeth

    That should read:

    “hence the survey was addressed to ” The Residents “…


    “( see Appendix B on page 18 )”

  7. Thanks Elizabeth.

    See, I have difficulty in that it wasn’t the ratepayers who were surveyed. After all if it is the ratepayers who are going to foot the majority of the bill, then they surely must be the ones targeted. Otherwise this is just an opinion poll of the population. Does a tenant paying rent give the same weight to their thought processes as a ratepayer? I mean when I was younger and even sillier, goodness know what I would have ticked in my flat in Mornington, after all the consequences aren’t directly mine to worry about (sure landlords will pass on increases etc, but that doesn’t worry tenants as much as say petrol going through the roof, or repairs on the house etc).

    Again it’s just another reason why I have difficulty with the process of polls.

  8. Karetai

    Road works to be put on hold for stadium.
    OMG aren’t there enough pot holes already?

    By the way I think a rates strike is the way to go.
    78% of people have said no to ratepayer funding for the stadium.I hope this council finally listens otherwise they could end up in a right mess.

  9. I was waiting for you to show up. The SUGGESION is that some road projects, NOT roadworks MAY be put off. But this is ONE suggestion.

    And as I can suggest Richard or someone clarify, there will still be a budget to maintain existing roads, thus your glorious pothole battle will remain. Not sure which roads you really are talking about at the moment too, there is so much resurfacing going on at the moment.

    Glad to see you advocate illegal action too, it’s becoming pretty clear that opponents will go outside of the law to get what they want – that’s a great look for the city isn’t it.

  10. Karetai

    The suggestion of a rates strike seems to have got the stadium supporters jumping up and down.
    It seems that it is ok for teachers,junior doctors etc to strike but when it comes to ratepayers, it becomes a criminal offence.

  11. Karetai

    All over the country ratepayers have had enough of councils spending their hard earned money on frivolous “sexy projects” as Richard Walls calls them.People like you Paul can sod off.Pay for them yourself if you want to but it’s got to the stage where most of us are getting prepared for
    a citizen revolt.

  12. Elizabeth

    It’s absolutely NOT alright for junior doctors to strike…as if hospital systems didn’t have enough problems in providing health care to all who need it. The junior doctors’ conditions of work and pay might have been onerous but they have no right to penalise patients and other staff the way they did.

    I oppose the extent of public funding proposed for this stadium but under no circumstances do I condone a rates strike.

  13. It is the fundamental right of every human being to withhold their labour, regardless of profession.

  14. Elizabeth

    It is better to negotiate harder and or more intelligently.

  15. No the difference is a little thing called law.

    It’s perfectly legal to withhold your labour (well it still is, National is in power after all). My understanding is that it is an illegal act if it’s an incorporated society.

    Sorry the law is getting in the way.

    No not all over the country ratepayers have had enough. Gross generalisations add so much to the debate don’t they – not!

  16. Karetai

    Do you mean the way that you negotiate Elizabeth by standing on both sides of the fence?

  17. What the hell does that mean. Elizabeth is firmly against the massive amount of public money being spent by the councils on this project. Her position has never wavered.

    That’s not both sides of the fence. However the ability to acknowledge that there are other points of view which may have merit shows intelligence and an open mind.

    I’ll tolerate a massive and vigourous debate on the stadium, but I won’t tolerate any personal rubbish. Warning to all.

  18. Karetai

    Then Paul is it a case of ‘don’t do as I do ,do as I say’

    {Ed: No it’s a simple case of, don’t play the person, least of all someone on your side, and certainly not someone who doesn’t engage in such debate. Don’t scare the players off, considering this is a very intelligent player on your side – Paul}

  19. Elizabeth

    Still here…

    Not breaking the rules! Here’s a positive reversal for rugby and concert going as main events at Dunedin, this is the way we have to start thinking about our use of major assets and who the audience can and should be.

    Rock band Shihad is to play at Carisbrook when the Highlanders play the Crusaders on March 7 but, in what is believed to be a first for the ground, the band will play after the game.

  20. And the little light bulb above Chris Green’s head just got turned on. This is what I am talking about, innovation and new way’s of thinking about how things can and will be done will be the order of the day for whatever company it is that will run the stadium operations.

    As I understand it, it would be along similar lines to Vbase in CHCH, a council enterprise, but responsible for the marketing and management of the entertainment venues.

  21. Richard

    “The SUGGESTION is that some road projects, NOT roadworks MAY be put off. But this is ONE suggestion. And as I can suggest Richard or someone clarify, there will still be a budget to maintain existing roads”.

    Correct. The proposal put forward by staff relates to part of the SH88 (Dunedin-Port Chalmers) Highway Realigment – part of the AIRPORT TO PORT link set out in the Transportation Plan as adopted by council a year or so ago. What they are essentially suggesting is that IF THE STADIUM GOES AHEAD, it is not necessary to carry out all the ROADING CAPITAL WORKS proposed at once and that e.g. the works around the Frederick Street/Anzac Avenue area could be set back a year or two

    The reason is the increase in the costs of roading materials e.g. bitumen etc which means the original estimates for this projected work are no longer sufficient for it to be all done in “one hit”.

    MAINTENANCE, i.e. the filling of “pot-holes” is a separate budget item and not related to this work – or the stadium – at all.

    Anyone who, of course, read behind the headline would know that. Unfortunately the sub who wrote the headline did not!

    The mercury hit 50C in our side yard today!

  22. Elizabeth

    Understand Richard.
    [Gotta get that bitumen mix right for the new roads if we keep running these temperatures. Roads melting all over town today!]

  23. I remember those two summers I had in Twizel in 1978/79 where I got in so much trouble with my mum for playing in the tar that was running down the roads with the heat.

    But once again thanks for clarifying this situation again. It’s very nice to have the dispassionate facts, even if one day I don’t like what I hear.


    PS 34°C at 10am here on the Peninsula, but then the easterly kicked in. New Zealand weather forum was all a buzz today with the weather.

  24. Karetai

    Hi Richard
    1-If this stadium goes ahead will the DCC take into consideration those householders who are already paying extra rates for flood protection schemes eg the Leith-Lindsay scheme,Silverstream and farmers mainly out on the Taieri.
    I know that what you are going to say is that these schemes come under the ORC and that the DCC has nothing to do with them.
    The cost of this stadium is supposed to be $1 a week to the average household. If that is true which I very much doubt,then something should be done to help those who are paying up to thousands of dollars a year for flood protection schemes.
    The public moan and complain about the high costs of dairy products these days but is it not a wonder when you see how much some of these farmers are having to pay for these schemes and also for fart taxes etc.

    2-I was rather disappointed with most of the councillors the other day when a suggestion to freeze your wages for the next year was overturned,that is most of you voted for a pay rise.
    You probably all needed it afterall it will pay for the cost of your extra rates for the stadium.

    The mercury at my house hit 40C in the shade today.I’m not sure where official temperatures are taken,but they missed out my area.It’s still 30C inside right now.I hope you will spare a few thoughts for animals in this weather with their thick furry coats.I know my animals are really stressing out with the heat and I can’t even leave a door or window open for them because the rabbiters tonight are too close for comfort

  25. Richard

    “I was rather disappointed with most of the councillors the other day when a suggestion to freeze your wages for the next year was overturned,that is most of you voted for a pay rise” – Karetai.

    We did no such thing. Remuneration is set by the Remuneration Authority. We have no discretion in the matter.

  26. Karetai “fart taxes etc” come on that’s pure ideological dogma and has sod all to do with the stadium development. Not only that a pretty poor analysis of the price of dairy at the counter.

  27. Karetai

    Pay rise approved.
    Councillors have backed away from a suggestion to freeze their own pay for the next year.
    The idea came from Cr Fliss Butcher during the third day of budget hearings yesterday, as part of a discussion about a proposed 5% increase in the city’s civic leadership budget.
    The increase also covered a significant increase in food costs and the cost of preparing for the next local body elections in 2010, work for which would begin later this year.
    However, governance team leader Nina Darling said the budget was “relatively modest” and the councillors’ pay increase was a legislative requirement coming from the Remuneration Authority.
    Following the debate, councillors voted to approve the increased expenditure.

  28. Richard

    “Pay rise approved. Councillors have backed away from a suggestion to freeze their own pay for the next year. The idea came from Cr Fliss Butcher during the third day of budget hearings yesterday, as part of a discussion about a proposed 5% increase in the city’s civic leadership BUDGET.”

    Hmm, I can see how you read the report in the ODT but that the first part is entirely at odds with the second part should be have alerted you to a conflict.

    Council is considering its BUDGETS and estimates for the LTCCP which extends over 10 years! The Civic Leadership budget for the next financial year provides for a 5% estimated increase in expenditure. Part of this relates to POSSIBLE increases in remuneration for elected members. That is all.

    The phase “Councillors backed away” is therefore totally inaccurate. It was not even a matter for consideration.

    You have underlined the dangers of relying on a condensed news report for information instead of the actual agenda papers etc. These are on council’s website or available from the Civic Centre.

    We will not make our final decisions on the DRAFT until Monday 2 March. It then goes out for public consultation before coming back to council on 2 June. The consultation process commences with an Expo in the Town Hall on Friday and Saturday 27 March. Along with other councillors and the Mayor, I will take my turn on the roster.

    “Karetai” is an honourable name in our history. This is a cordial invitation to come along, front up and inform yourself.

    Now I have a couple of small gardening tasks to complete before it gets too hot!

  29. Karetai

    Water and wastewater upgrades account for nearly half the 14% rates rise Roxburgh ratepayers are likely to face this year.
    Central Otago District Council utility services manager said the Roxburgh board would have to spend about $300-000 on land-based treatment and disposal of wastewater.At present the treated sewage is discharged into the Clutha River.
    Roxburgh Community Board chairman said “It’s a central Government led initiative but driven by the ORC.”
    One board member agreed saying “the council want us to build a stadium and we can’t even afford to get rid of our poos”

  30. Yeah there is always one councillor who grabs all the headlines, just look at the ODT the last couple of days. Nothing like a negative comment to make a good headline eh.

    The counter argument is that why is it all of a sudden a trade off between poo and stadium, when humans have been pooing (for want of a better term) as long as they have been in the country, suddenly the stadium is the trade off. How very convenient. It’s like the opportunity costs which Bev Butler has been throwing about the place, only thing is I doubt very much if the city was going to build another competing technology/science park, or in the face of Govt investment in Broadband, going to compete with central Govt to install upgraded broadband in the city.

    BTW, as I understand it councillors remuneration is pretty low. I would be in favour of actually seeing them paid greater in the hope that (and sorry no offence intended Richard) younger and more diverse candidates put their hand up for public service.

  31. Richard

    “Water and wastewater upgrades account for nearly half the 14% rates rise Roxburgh ratepayers are likely to face this year – Karetai”.

    So, what do you think is driving the projected rate increase in the DCC budget?

    It certainly isn’t the proposed stadium.

    But, don’t take my word for it. Check your file of newspaper clippings: “When you look at it, what’s really driving it [the rate increase] is water and wastewater.” – Jim Harland, CEO, DCC (ODT 17.1.2009).

  32. Richard

    “I would be in favour of actually seeing them paid greater in the hope that (and sorry no offence intended Richard) younger and more diverse candidates put their hand up for public service – Paul.”

    No offence taken. Absolutely none. History shows that “younger” people do not easily put their hands up. Most have other priorities and/or commitments, young families, mortgages, or have career choices to make etc.

    I have seen them “come and go”. Remember Sue Cameron, Anishka Jelich? Mike Guest is another, “retiring” young in 1983 but, of course, making a comeback in 2004. And then there was Jeremy!

    What Dunedin really does need – and deserve – is robust debate at election time that involves more than just those standing for the mayoralty – the only position determined “at large”. That will not happen until we get rid of the artificial ward system.


    PS: for the record, I started “young”. I first stood for office at the age of 21 and nearly got elected to the St. Kilda Borough Council – I was in on election night and missed out by ten votes on the recount. Made it three years later. Today, I have the cholesterol and blood pressure of a 30 year old. As I asked my doctor on receiving this news, “Can I have some of the other things that go with being a 30 year old please?” Oh yes! No problems with the mind and the memory but when it comes to cutting hedges ……

  33. Karetai

    This man is not a councillor,he’s a community board member.
    I’ve been trying to point out to you and Richard Walls that some ratepayers are already having to pay more than their fair share for rates but neither of you understand that or choose not to care.You will only have to pay for a stadium.Some of the ratepayers,especially farmers and residents of small towns around the province are having to pay so much more.
    There’s the clean air act now which they also have to abide to.
    Some of the ratepayers will be facing an increase of up to 50% just for the basics.
    I wouldn’t expect you to have an ounce of sympathy for any of these people.
    Because to you a stadium is more important than people.
    These small towns are the heartland of this country and it may surprise you to know that the people who live in these areas still have hearts.
    It seems like yours was stolen from you a long time ago.

  34. Karetai

    Dear Richard
    The ratepayers of Dunedin are not having to pay 14% extra for rates plus the costs of the stadium.
    Your pay increase of 5% would go no where if you were living in some of these smaller communities.
    You’d have to cut a few more hedges yourself.
    By the way,I’m not concerned about the age of those who are putting their hands up for public service,I’m more concerned about their reputations and their previous actions.

  35. Richard

    “Your pay increase of 5%……Karetai”.

    First I have heard of it. The Remuneration Authority have certainly not indicated any figure.
    Just where do you get your information from?

  36. Karetai

    From the story tellers at the ODT

  37. Elizabeth

    Karetai said: “Central Otago District Council utility services manager said the Roxburgh board would have to spend about $300-000 on land-based treatment and disposal of wastewater.”

    Something about the use of a hyphen in the figure given…

    Checked back some posts on skyscraper and Rosie said []:

    “Here are a few stats: …The population of Vancouver is over 3 million.
    The population of Dunedin is 118-000.
    …Here’s another stat:
    The population in Dunedin in 1996 was 118-000…”

    Yep, the old hyphen problem…

  38. Karetai

    What has a hyphen got to do with councillors and rates?
    Will you be marching next weekend Elizabeth or sitting in the council chambers holding hands with Richard and Paul?

  39. Karetai,

    come and say hi, i’ll be the one handing out ‘fact busting’ pamphlets.

    These will be very simple myth busters, you know the ones that have been put up, with next to no basis in reality, as reasons why we shouldn’t build a stadium. People can choose to read them and get some balance in their views, or they can not. I can’t make them read them, but then I can get frustrated when time and time again I hear people bleating on about things that just aren’t related to the stadium as reasons why we shouldn’t build.

    I mean, what the hell has the clean air act got to do with the stadium. In life there are costs. The so called cost of living out of the city is off set by the fact that you don’t have boy racers up and down your street every night, or the neighbour isn’t burning rubbish (they’re not meant to be burning) etc. You get to live in relative tranquility (Que loud car just going up my hill now). I have to live by the clean air act, and as every citizen should. Baggage not directly associated with this stadium is being pilled up left right and centre as “the stadium’s fault”.

    Please also stop with the gross generalisations thank you, you have no way of knowing if I care for ‘people’ or not.

    With regard to people looking for public service “reputations and their previous actions” seems to indicate baggage to me.

    Also time you had better start taking what is published in the ODT with a pinch of salt. If there is one thing I have learnt over the 2 years of this blog, is that the media (previous bastions/gatekeepers of facts and figures) are riding on reputations and not current ability. This was one of the reasons why this blog really started to gain strength, as people were starting to look elsewhere for alternative views.

    Elizabeth – 3 Million was a little excessive, but Vancouver is a stunning town (subtle use of the hyphen?).

    PS, I’m praying but not holding out much hope that I would be able to take my kids to the march this week, but if I’m holding a pro stadium sign and passing out material, and given the StS’s previous inclination to disgusting verbal abuse of it’s fellow members, I’m guessing this isn’t going to be the place for my kids to get their first view of a political protest.

  40. Karetai

    Wern’t you Elizabeth Kerr before you became just Elizabeth?

  41. Karetai

    You are nothing but a scaremonger Paul.The anti stadium people are not anti Christ.
    If you’re concerned about your kids leave them at home.But it would be good for them to meet decent people for a change.

  42. Richard, thank you very much for the next idea in the world of social media and blogging. I’m going to start planning today a super blog for the next election.

    Since I’m happy playing with all of the tools of the modern social media, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, blogs, Flickr etc, this could be a nice experience.

    Hmmm lots to plan, plenty to invite to participate. Lets make the dear old ODT look typically antiquated here. Of course all sides of the debate will be welcomed to be heard.

    Oh this is going to take many coffee sessions to work out, how brilliantly exciting, how long do I have, probably not long enough?

    Just registered the name now;

    Got that, now to start planing.

    BTW, Richard, married to a political scientist and from a Union agitator father, I’ve almost put my hand up several times in Wellington and now Dunedin. Probably happier on this side of the keyboard these days.

  43. Karetai, thanks very much, but even from the tenor of your comment, I think I’ll leave the kids at home with thoroughly un-decent people.

    Did I even mention evil, no I didn’t I just thought, that with the level of passion that will be exhibited on Saturday, I’d rather my 5 year old boy heard his first foul language from the sporting field (whops that’s right he already has, those sat am soccer mums are unbelievable).

    I’ve seen excerpts from StS members to other StS members who were basically run out of Dodge. They were filthy, disgusting and abusive. I doubt very much me handing out pro stadium material will garner many offers of a nice cuppa at the after match.

    I know that there are many within the StS that are intelligent and well mannered, but then I’ve also encountered first hand the wrath of some american StS member outside the farmers market, with my two boys. As soon as I told her I was pro stadium, she started yelling at me, bloody loud. Walking away didn’t seem to deter her, and when my young boy said to me “why is she yelling at us dad”, I had bugger all of a reply than to say, some people are just angry.

    So sorry if personal experience and the experience of StS members has given me a somewhat less than favourable view of the organisation (not the people).

  44. Karetai

    “Married to a political scientist and from a Union agitator father.Have degrees in most subjects.Lived in most places of the world”
    I’m surprised that you would lower yourself to put your hand up as a common councillor when you have the world at your feet.Why didn’t you go for the prime minister’s job?The only problem you would have is deciding on whether to go with Labour or National.

  45. You see, my mother always said to me, get an education and see the world, your eyes will be opened.

    And this from a woman who left school at 15 to work in the biscuit factory here in Dunedin and has never left the country.

    Sorry, the only thing I would disappoint my mother on is my political badge, and never been ashamed to put it on, too left for Labour and too pragmatic for The Alliance. Make you happy.

    There is a great scene in the Spike Lee movie in which a father and son were walking down the street talking about the meaning of life etc, where the father said to the boy that the greatest thing he could teach his son, was to respect everyone regardless. What harm could it do?

    please stop with the jibes.

  46. Richard

    “Your pay increase of 5%……Karetai”.

    First I have heard of it. The Remuneration Authority have certainly not indicated any figure.
    Just where do you get your information from?

    January 25, 2009 at 9:13 pm
    From the story tellers at the ODT”.

    Well, I suggest you re-read the item in brief on page 28 of yesterday’s ODT which refers to a 5% increase in the Civic LEADERSHIP Budget which covers a host of things.

    As I understand it, Paul set up this site to enable an exchange of opinion on the merits or otherwise of the proposed Stadium. That is why I originally tuned in. Our city needs robust and informed debate.

    With respect ‘Karetai’, it seems you have a different agenda. I commend this thought to you:

    “You need the open spaces for rampart thought. Let them be big thoughts, let them sail like a kite in the sky more than once and when you finally wind in the string with a good thought at the end of it, it will be tried and tested. BIG THOUGHTS ARE NOT CREATED IN small PLACES’ – John Laws, Australian Broadcaster, 1994.

  47. Elizabeth

    Sorry I noted the hyphen, Rosie, I mean Karetai, no I mean C… Hell, so confusing. But hey the message is the same, you staunchly oppose. Have to admire you for that. You’ve never wavered.

    Have no intention to join StS on the march. My opposition to the extent of public funding for the proposed stadium is on the record.

    The march might help ODT sell more papers. If 2,000 or more show it’ll be a warm and fuzzy day for StS. [Remember, Councillors had a workshop during the last march. The articulate, entertaining, seriously motivated Victor Billot did a great job at the Mayor’s front door. But gosh darn, no-one home.]

    That said, if funding is approved in February, quite irrespective of StS’s march – with all DCC and ORC conditions met – then whether ‘we’ like it or not the people of Dunedin people gain joint responsibility for making this project WORK, or find ourselves saddled with a DEBT to each other of stifling proportion.

    Build it, means use it and use it well.

    If in February information on funding the cost of construction, fitout and associated infrastructure, as well as that on the proposed stadium’s operational viability, is patchy, poorly contrived or unconvincing then Council decision making on ‘for’ or ‘against’ has to be easy.

    Roll on February!
    Said Elizabeth Kerr.

  48. Karetai

    When people join STS they fill in a form with their name,address,email address and phone numbers.
    That information should be private.
    But that’s not always the case is it Elizabeth?
    I’d say STS are very fortunate that you resigned.

  49. Would that be the same rule of Incorporated Societies which states they must not break the law, or advocate breaking the law?

  50. Elizabeth

    StS has its main contact people and contact details (names, phone numbers and email addresses and the PO Box) in public domain on its website.

    The membership of the StS management committee is thus not private information.

    Is StS a useful and vital campaign group any more…even if there’s a huge (to be generous!) turn out on ‘march day’ there is little no effect possible on Councillors who must make their decision on the basis of their reading of reports, committee debate, and their appraisal of the complicated matter of Dunedin’s intergenerational economic development future.

  51. Elizabeth

    PS. In city places (not necessarily online) there’s healthy speculation about the the use of acronyms in the stadium debate, including subtle and not so subtle revelations of authorship through online text markers and phraseology, the wish to keep debate pumping through ‘alter egos’, etc. All fair cop.

    I have no inkling if ‘Rosie’ is an StS member, or ‘Karetai’, or the ‘C…’ person, who might or might not be one and the same, or what their real name(s) and email address(es) are. Who cares, StS is a foreign land.

  52. Peter

    Not surprising when there’s a cast of thousands with colourful names like Pukeko, Caz, Farsighted, Duke of Ban Phai, MikeStk, Mikenette, Vilder, UglyBob, Sam-Buca etc … Speculation all adds to the interest.

  53. Karetai

    Peter in your cast of thousands you missed out a couple of names,Buck Meadows and Paulonthebay.Buck Meadows has got an extremely foul mouth.Paulonthebay isn’t permitted to speak the same language.
    Like you said speculation all adds to the interest.
    By the way only Elizabeth and Paul know exactly what I was meaning in my previous post.

  54. Karetai

    PS, I’m praying but not holding out much hope that I would be able to take my kids to the march this week, but if I’m holding a pro stadium sign and passing out material, and given the StS’s previous inclination to disgusting verbal abuse of it’s fellow members, I’m guessing this isn’t going to be the place for my kids to get their first view of a political protest

    With the way you speak on some sites,I’m sure your kids won’t be shocked when they hear “disgusting verbal abuse”from STS members.
    They’ve already been educated at home.

    {edit: if there are any kids reading that blog, I apologise unreservedly. I on the other hand maintain a very high standard of language for my kids, hopefully they will have 60 odd years of being an adult and all of the sins associated with that, they only get the 15 or so years to be kids. Unlike a certain StS member, I would never imagine yelling at an adult accompanied by a toddler and young child like I was subjected to in real life. The blogosphere allows a certain artistic license in the appropriate place, reality thankfully doesn’t tolerate it}.

  55. Elizabeth

    I’m guessing, Karetai – not really in the interests of the stadium debate, but – the last time the StS membership list received attention (not on this blog) was through emails from the StS president and current committee to StS members claiming inordinate things against ex committee members, some or all of whom by their own volition remain members of the organisation.

    I’d been well shot of StS before the invective commenced in writing. Small mercies.

    Wider picture, the president and her immediate cohorts should not play games – or play false – with the diligent and committed oppositionary (bill paying) membership.

  56. Karetai

    You’re guessing wrong Elizabeth.
    When I looked at this site last week,my user name Karetai had been taken off and replaced with a name and email address that only a STS committee member would know.
    Apart from you I can see no reason why any of the other STS committee members would pass on this information to Paul.
    My ‘new name’ last week was my husband’s name.
    Leave him out of all this nastiness.

  57. Karetai

    “Residential rates are likely to increase in the financial year beginning in 2010,in a move designed to make the difference between non-residential and residential rates closer in proportion”

    ‘ Mongrels’ was the word that slipped from my tongue

  58. Karetai, several issues.

    I have never ever changed your name on this site, never publish people’s email addresses and I would never do what you claim, that goes against the basic tenant of this site, free and open speech, without reprisal. I am the ONLY person who knows the email addresses of the people posting here, and I would never divulge them with anyone. Not one single other person has any form of Admin or Editor rights, this is a simple legally verifiable fact beyond any reproach.

    Since I am the ONLY person who has access to the admin of this site (and I have checked with WordPress, even issued a security breach notice, which came back negative), there is no one else who could have possibly logged in as your husband or anyone else for that matter. In fact, you or anyone else can’t change (or even hack) alternative names and email addresses into this site (this is why I use the trusted platform of wordpress). Further there are no posts from your IP address (or range of IP addresses – your IP provider allocates a range of IP addresses each time you restart your modem) other than yours. The only thing I can imagine has happened is that when you went to come here, someone has contemplated posting to this site, with another name and email address, but decided against it. Thus when you came to comment again, the browser remembered the last name and email address. That is the only plausible explanation for what you claim. I aim to keep the level of privacy and decency at this blog as high as possible, and take seriously any claims of malicious behaviour. If you have any concerns about this at anytime (despite our history) I will act upon them immediately. I also have never accepted ANY names and email addresses from any person, and would NEVER use them if I did. Give me dates and I’ll dig further. If you hover your mouse over the date, at the bottom of my browser shows the comment number.

    I on the other hand make no bones about the fact that my user name on SkyScraper City is BuckMeadows. I have been a member of that site for many years, and used the name of the town with a population of 50 (last petrol stop before Yosemite in California) as it was so cool. I never assumed the need to change it. Also people use imaginative names for what ever reason, normally not to hide personality, but to indulge an online persona.

    As for the freedom of language of debate over there, well as they say all the worlds a stage, and in playing the different roles in life, BuckMeadows allows a certain linguistic freedom. To be fair, any of the language exhibited by Bucky over there is a direct response to:

    A) personal attacks in the first place,
    B) intense stupidity dressed as debate

    Whoever you are, I will maintain that if you ascertain for a FACT that South Dunedin will float away and that Portobello Road will become submerged, then sorry ridicule is an easy tool to parry such insane ideas. Show me the science anywhere on Gods clean earth that supports these suggestions and I will offer a written apology in the ODT, although I know for a FACT that no such published science exists, and no such science will be published in the near future. But we’ve covered those issues over there, and I’m sure Karetai would never indulge in such fantasies or fallacious debate.

    PaulontheBay, is of course a nice play on my name (well there’s a shock) and the fact that I live on the bay. I was actually lead designer/consultant on the redesign and information architecture of the new ODT website, and in actual fact the name was a joke I used when we were testing. It stuck, life goes on. I’ve dozens of joke names all over cyberspace as every site I develop needs testing by users, I still like BuckMeadows, it has a certain 70s USAness about it.

    Sorry if I have tried to keep the language of this site more civil, it’s a shame when playing ‘nice’ seems to offend? My god after going to the first StS meeting (sorry to be so blunt Peter and Elizabeth), but the material I could have come up with to malign anti-stadium folk was immense, but I have stayed away from that, and will continue to in the future. I mean, if you want material, go to Flickr and search Dunedin Stadium, you will see a naked anti-stadium local identity. If that doesn’t give one material for generalised ridicule nothing does. But then generalisations would render this site useless and the debate a joke, for I know for a fact that despite his claims Dr Hamlin is a very intelligent person. I know for a fact that Peter E and Elizabeth K are very personable, articulate and intelligent people, who more often than not don’t take nude pics of themselves and publish them on the web.

    If you want to continue the personal non stadium line of argument, which quite frankly turns everyone here away, I will do what I loath to do and give you the Anne treatment and issue a ‘time out’. If you want to continue this “he said – she said” non stadium personal argument, gloves off and see you at SkyScraper, otherwise continue to post here, but get back to the topic. Hopefully this will be the last time I need to mention this, honestly its like preaching to my 3rd formers all over again.

  59. Right back to the stadium.

  60. Elizabeth

    Karetai said: “You’re guessing wrong Elizabeth.
    When I looked at this site last week,my user name Karetai had been taken off and replaced with a name and email address that only a StS committee member would know.
    Apart from you I can see no reason why any of the other StS committee members would pass on this information to Paul.
    My ‘new name’ last week was my husband’s name.
    Leave him out of all this nastiness.”

    I really did guess wrong…jeepers Karetai, having read this I see the kind of problem you’re having online, quite disconcerting.

    I’ve no idea what’s been happening though. Have just read Paul’s longer more knowledgeable reply…. as individuals (definitely not in concert on this), neither of us appears to have an inkling.

    I’m a rank ‘use-washing machine-don’t-take-the-back-off-it’ computer illiterate, I wouldn’t have the first idea what happened to your posts/names or the knowhow to get your email address(es) from anywhere including StS.

    Definitely not in that land (StS, now declared foreign) any more, sailed away in early November and trashed any personal StS files I’d created or received since becoming a founding member in June. Got rid.

    Paul has invited you to let him know if you experience any more problems. That’s the best he can do. But it sure is a mystery.

  61. Elizabeth

    Yes. Stadium.
    According to Channel 9 news ODT’s David Loughrey will be reporting (later) today on the stadium and the effect on rates. Not sure if that will flow into further discussion on a change in the Council’s differential rating system.

  62. Councillor Mike Guest

    These will be your payments if the Stadium proceeds:

    House value – $250,000 (the median) – $1.30 per week.

    House value – $289,000 (the average) – $1.43 per week

    House value – $500,000. – $2.11 per week.

    House value – $750,000 – $2.92 per week.

    Hardly figures to get excited about. The library costs just over $10,000,000 per year to run!

    I take into account everything – DCC rates and ORC rates as well as the reduced dividend from the Council’s Holding Company. I have not secretly covered up an expense here and there. Everything is added together.

    These amounts are still to be fine tuned, but I believe any fine tuning will involve reductions, not increases.

  63. Elizabeth

    Last night, Ch 9 specifically said David Loughrey would comment on the stadium and effects on rates but I’m unclear whether Chris Price’s item today “Rates rise could be up to 7.8%” and David’s item “Rates amended, not targeted for now” is the item promoted – maybe there’s a specific item still to come. Meanwhile Calvin Oaten is shivering in today’s ODT.

  64. Calvin Oaten

    Councillor Michael Guest, since when did you ever understand anything remotely economic? I stand by my deductions and defy you, Malcolm Farry or anyone else to deliver conclusive arguments backed by empirical evidence to prove otherwise. Maybe the answer lies in the fine tuning you mention.

  65. Cr Guest & Calvin, thank you both for coming by to debate the issues.

    On the face of it, those figures I just can’t find as crippling for householders. Considering that inflation is expected to be close to nil in the coming year, and factors such as the drop in the price of fuel mean I have an extra $45 a week in my bank just from fuel savings. If you are lucky enough to own a house worth $700,000 and can’t afford to cut back less than one flat white a week, I suggest you are running too close to the edge anyway.

    Just as you seem to be sceptical about the DCC’s projections for borrowing and growth over the next few years, please excuse some of us for being a little sceptical, considering we all know the Ratepayers Association’s stance, it’s astonishing how view points alter perception.

  66. Karetai

    Paul you said
    I on the other hand make no bones about the fact that my user name on SkyScraper City is BuckMeadows. I have been a member of that site for many years,

    You claim to be honest
    Isn’t this you at skyscrapercity…
    Registered User
    Join Date: Jul 2008
    Posts: 105

  67. Calvin Oaten

    With all due respects Paul, I think you need to get hold of copies of at least the last four AnnualPlan/LTCCPs. Study those and I think you may just start to realise that hey! there really is something developing here. For instance, do you realise that since 2001/02 when Jim Harland arrived, that the city’s projected net debt has risen from $45 million to $360 million? Read my article in today’s ODT on the stadium financing and ask yourself the question, what is the true situation. You don’t have to believe me, but to get balance you should ask the other side to refute my contentions. If you get an answer, and can understand it then you are a better man than me. Good luck, but please, get the facts. By the way, the stadium is not the only project which we ought to be concerned about.

  68. Karetai,

    could you please refrain from the amateur dramatics, as the local pantomime production of Secret Seven isn’t even this poor or filled with conspiracy fantasies. I have been a member of that site for a couple of years, this is true. I unfortunately lost login details and needed to re-register, hence my original login of Compie (which I am still gutted) was dumped and I became the Myth Busting Mega Hero Buck Meadows, slayer of conspiracy theorists left, right and centre. How’s it going finding those references for me which state that South Dunedin is going to float away? The Peer Reviewed articles predicting the imminent demise of Portobello Road to that of Agua Highway? Would it satisfy you if I was to compile a list of all cyberidentities I have used in my capacity as web developer/information architect, and the history of these too.?


    “since 2001/02 when Jim Harland arrived, that the city’s projected net debt has risen from $45 million to $360 million” But how much of that money has been as a result of projects like sewage upgrades which the city has neglected for far too long. I mean Dunedin in the early 1990s looked and felt like the inside of my Great Aunties High St house, comfy but drab and in serious need of work, piles etc. The difference in the city with respect to look and vitality is phenomenal. If it hadn’t been, there was no way I was going to relocate here from Wellington. I now even entertain the idea of living here in the long term.

    To tell the truth the pure accounting side of economics is not my speciality, and I will happily allow others to debate this aspect of the stadium, this does not preclude one from having an informed opinion on the subject. I’ve stated from the very start that the only reason I would ever doubt the viability of the stadium would be on genuine economic concerns. But to my mind I just haven’t heard a compelling argument framed in such terms that is yet to convince me. I am comfortable with a city/country accruing debt to create the environment in which people are not only willing to live in, but one which will mean it is an attractive option compared with other centres.

  69. Calvin Oaten

    I rest my case.

  70. What, you mean you agree Dunedin needed action to pull it out of the 19th century, or is that typical Anti-Stadium arrogance prevailing?

    You simply can not argue ‘fact’s in isolation. Council debt rise hasn’t been for no reason at all. Could you please tell us which projects or ventures the council has let the people down on with regard to it’s debt accruing?

    Because to argue these so called facts in isolation suggests some ideological position which formulates bias one way or the other.

  71. Calvin Oaten

    You said: “To tell the truth the pure accounting side of economics is not my specialty.” you then said: “that the only reason I would ever doubt the viability of the stadium would be on genuine economic concerns.” Conflicting statements demonstrating an inability to see the wood from the trees.

  72. No Calvin, ‘facts’ can be facts, but if they are so called ‘facts’ disseminated through ideological positions then they are open to interpretation, and as economics is not an exact science but a series of value positions then most economic arguments are open for discussion.

    Take for instance the so called current economic crisis. Popular misconception is that no one is making money (seriously big money), but business and ventures prove that fallacy incorrect every day. And the popular (read imperialistic) economic models driving modern western economies have needed to be bailed out by the much maligned Keynesian Economics.

    Facts and figures in isolation can be sterile, but in real life where they have to interact with people suddenly become open to massive interpretation.

    If you claim that as an undeniable fact that this stadium is completely unaffordable, why isn’t it that the entire weight of the business and finance community come down on your side. Why hasn’t central government come out with a damming critique instead of entertaining the thought of support for this venture.

  73. Karetai

    If you claim that as an undeniable fact that this stadium is completely unaffordable, why isn’t it that the entire weight of the business and finance community come down on your side. (Pauls quote)

    They’re not exactly falling over themselves in their rush to buy corporate boxes.
    This debate could go on until the cows come home.
    But every one of the councillors has to decide on whether to spend this huge sum of ratepayer money on as Richard Walls calls “a sexy project” or wait until further research reveals the state of the beaches at St Kilda,St Clair and Middle Beach.
    There has been talk of building a seawall between St Clair and Lawyers Head.If this is indeed needed,this project should be this council’s major concern.
    It would be great to see a few “sexy” projects underway in Dunedin,but you can’t build a mansion until the foundations are in place.

  74. Elizabeth

    Karetai said: “It would be great to see a few “sexy” projects underway in Dunedin,but you can’t build a mansion until the foundations are in place.”

    By the by, given various (transportable) building technologies and construction engineering approaches it’s entirely possible to build ‘a mansion’ without foundations or before the more usual options for foundations are adopted…nonetheless, I accept the tenor and direction of your argument.

    This is a pro-development website after all. Mitigating coastal erosion is a multidisciplinary ‘design’ process, costly, expansive, a positive alternative option for keeping Dunedin on the map…bigger in concept than any stadium shed.

  75. Councillor Mike Guest

    I have stated the true figures above. The large majority of ratepayers in Dunedin will pay much, much less than $2 per week. A completed Stadium of this calibre will complete a beautiful crescent of new City projects from the Chinese Garden, through the much enhanced Settlers’ Museum, along a gentrified Anzac Avenue, past a multi purpose Stadium to a completely re-vamped Logan Park Development including an expanded First Class cricket ground. Completion of Stage 1 of the Harbourside redevelopment around the Harbour Basin will just add to the re-development of this whole area. It will enhance the whole City providing first class facilities over a whole range of activities. It will revitalise the City for young and old and the improvements will still be around in 100 years. This is the time to rejoice if it all goes ahead. To be sure, they are large projects but they are affordable if citizens are prepared to do their bit like generations gone by. I never paid for Moana Pool, but my parents did. I never paid for major roading projects and recreational facilities, but my grandparents did. I never planted and nurtured the Town Belt and the Gardens, but my great grandparents did. Even on our current 10 year Plan, the rate increases proposed for the last 4 years are an average of 2.5% per annum. Hardly doom and gloom.

  76. Karetai, do you read anything I post, or full stories written. There has been TALK of building a sea wall, but that is all it is. Just like there has been talk this that and the other, mainly published in the ODT with sensationalist headlines for the sake of god knows what.

    This is a suggestion, and thankfully, unlike the reality field that surrounds Anti-Stadium folk, the studies are being done first to see if this is;

    A) Necessary
    b) The appropriate resolution of the problem of coastal erosion in that area.

    From my memory of coastal geomorphology sea walls are terribly expensive and more often than not appropriate and effective. I remember going over the figures for how much material is washed out from behind a poorly (or inappropriately) constructed sea wall in one storm system, phenomenal. Until I see the published material submitted by the Geography dept’s studies, I and everyone else should reserve judgement as to what course of action is necessary. I would doubt very much if there was any scientific support for such a draconian approach to coastal management. When I hear the likes of Professor Bob Kirk (possibly our most eminent coastal Geomorphologists) suggesting we need a sea wall, then I will take note. Presently there are about a dozen studies being undertaken and how can we pre-judge the outcomes of these with any certainty.

    “Council parks and reserves team leader Martin Thompson” said “the data would then be used in hydrodynamic computer modelling, mapping the impact of possible solutions – from a seawall extension to simply restocking the area with sand – on the beaches over a 50-year period”

    Did you read that last line, simply restocking the area with sand. They aren’t ruling anything in or out, but thankfully they are willing to let GeoScience take it’s course and work on the evidence, and not scare mongering hearsay.

  77. Karetai

    Did you read that last line, simply restocking the area with sand

    Where’s the sand all going to come from?
    It can be robbed from Peter to look after Paul for only a limited time

  78. Actually Karetai yes it can.

    With erosion (sorry for the 5th form geography lesson folks) there are two forces associated with wave action.

    One which takes away beach material (in this case sand) called erosion, then there is the other force which places the material (transported from an erosion zone) elsewhere, this is called accretion.

    Whether this process occurs naturally, in the form of ocean currents, of which the Southland Current is the main Eastern South Island (responsible for the infamous erosion at Waitaki Boys High School), is influenced by the coastal topography.

    With our coasts, there is always going to be a source of sand.

    If you have any more concerns, get yourself a copy of this most excellent text book. You are an intelligent person who obviously has a keen interest in the physical processes which shape this land (who isn’t, it’s a great topic), and this is a very easy yet detailed read.

    The Physical Environment: A New Zealand Perspective
    By Andrew Sturman, Rachel Spronken-Smith
    Edition: illustrated
    Published by Oxford University Press, 2002
    ISBN 0195583957, 9780195583953
    560 pages

    Funny the reference page for this answer is by my old teacher and most eminent professor Bob Kirk (yes Norm’s son), called Marine Processes and Coastal Landforms.

    It’s all just a system that needs to be understood and played.

  79. Elizabeth

    No doom and gloom here. Ecstatic, as always.

    Mike, don’t forget to leave your car at the south end of Anzac Avenue and walk to the stadium since cars won’t fit under the ramp of Transportation Planning’s ‘gyratory’…the design may have changed since the hearings, though.

    Walking slows your journey, but gee it’s worth it.

    Keep following the magnificent avenue of trees (retained) into Logan Park and view the newly restored and tenanted Category 1 (you chaired the Heritage Strategy into fruition) former 1920s’ international exhibition building, closely adjacent the cricket ground and the historic grandstand.

    If you’ve got Pitter and Patter with you, linger a while in the Park, enjoy some passive recreation with your pets… here, organised sports fields and facilities generously incorporate wide areas of green space and pathways for general leisure use. Community recreation has been thought about in all its diversity. But I digress.

    Onto the stadium. If you can’t afford a seat or box you can always get a pie and beer from the concessions before continuing on your walk to the regularly dredged Leith Boat Harbour.

    The marina has a new lease of life since the Otago Regional Council agreed to maintain the facility in perpetuity; all in accordance with the landmark harbour safety plan for commercial and recreational harbour users – administered by the regional council’s newly appointed harbour master.

    From here, take a short cruise up to the Steamer Basin. Take in the new, beautifully detailed, publicly accessible wharf area that combines the rebuilt sea wall bastion, developed by the regional council in successful partnership with the Dunedin City Council.

    Just off the main wharf concourse you can visit the renowned harbourside industrial area where some of Dunedin’s best engineering design and fabrication talent actively resides. In the harbourside historic precinct, now protected in the District Plan, a wide variety of original buildings, most restored and cleverly adapted for use, are interspersed with high quality infill developments supporting hitech industry, business incubators, creative studios, service industries and a select number of insulated residential units making use of solar and wind technology – with sheltered garden plots – on their roofs.

    To Dunedin’s credit, the Fryatt/Rattray Street level crossing has been reinstated, this time with more whistles and bells, public sculpture and lights, making the link between the harbourside and the CBD a total celebration! The crossing – held off for years – received government funding and support, owing to Port Otago Limited’s foresight in developing the inland rail port on the Taieri, serving primary and processing industries in Otago and Southland as well as regional commuters.

    Regular road shuttles, motorised or rickshaw (thanks Paul!), travel the tree-lined boulevard parallel to the rail corridor, linking with the Tertiary Precinct and State Highway 88. The boulevard was once conceptualised as a high speed arterial until enlightened engineering advice threw out the option in late 2009.

    Returning to where your car is parked is an easy walk or save time by taking public transport. Alternatively, hire a bike or scooter, or catch one of the new railcars designed and built by Dunedin’s Hillside Engineering Group.

    Seriously out of time to describe further of Dunedin’s pathways and delights. You know how exciting it is. This is the ultimate VIBRANT city, proof of the efficacy and intelligence of kiwi master planning and creative vision. The whole experience got ‘fuelled’ on the discovery of offshore oil and gas.

    Life has never quite been the same.

  80. Elizabeth

    Sorry. Sorry. It’s just I was SO excited.

  81. Councillor Mike Guest

    Elizabeth’s passion for life and Dunedin can never be questioned. He contribution to the debate on City policy, design standards and heritage protection is second to none. I take on board everything you say, Elizabeth. We may disagree from time to time . . . but that’s politics.

  82. Elizabeth

    (the vision’s a bit raw, so described – needs time, lots of reworking, more consultation, a hint of poetry and science to turn the fossil fuel renaissance ‘green’ under the deep red sky)

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